workshop manual for 2004 Transit petrol/LPG

[serenmor]

I have just bought a 2004 Transit with petrol engine (2.3 litre I think) and factory fitted LPG system. I am amazed to find that Haynes don't do a manual for this model, so does anyone know where I can get a workshop manual of some kind, or at least the basic info regarding the usual maintainance, such as brakes, spark plugs and oil frequency changes etc?

Also, a possibly silly question, is the coolant a mix of coolant and water, or just coolant? The driver's manual is really short and just mentions coolant, not water.

Problem is I have never owned a Transit before so I have no idea about all this. Thanks in advance for any replies.

[DodgeRover]

Coolant is a mix of antifreeze and water

[Lpgc]

You won't find a Haynes manual covering any LPG system including factory fitted LPG systems.

You'd be lucky to find a Ford dealer who understood the LPG system on factory fitted Fords too (or a Vauxhall dealer who understood Vauxhall factory fitted LPG systems). Doesn't seem there's much knowledge on how they work on this forum either.

I fix them all on a regular basis...
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/search.php?keywords=koltec&terms=all&author=lpgc&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=LPGC&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Simon

[serenmor]

Simon, What part of the UK are you in? I need some work on my LPG system - the engine starts and runs on both petrol and LPG as normal, but after switching to gas, it runs a few miles, usually with a slight stutter on the engine, then switches back to petrol. It won't then go back to gas until I stop the engine and start again.
When running on LPG, it feels like there isn't enough fuel getting through, thus causing the engine stutter and low power, so I wonder if it is a blocked filter? If so , would this be an expensive or difficult job?
I have a little experience with LPG on other vehicles, but without any available service manual I am in the dark, I can't even identify the make of system, and all the components seem to be deliberately installed to make it access under the bonnet as difficult as possible!

[Lpgc]

I'm in Yorkshire, about equal distance (10 miles) between Doncaster, Pontefract, Wakefield and Barnsley, 2 miles from the A1.

Very unlikely your problem is due to blocked filters. I have repaired thousands of LPG installs, factory fitted and aftermarket, and out of all those only a couple had trouble due to filters! If filters were a problem would expect the van to idle OK but get progressively worse as engine output was supposed to rise (more you put your foot down, and especially at higher rpm, the more gas needs to flow through filters so a restriction becomes more of a problem), but even then it would be unlikely filters were the problem...

If your system is factory fitted and Transit model isn't a Connect it will be the usual Nikon Koltec factory fit stuff as also fitted to Vauxhalls etc. When I say 'usual', actually there's a bit of difference in components between the Transits and Vauxhalls, especially with the electronics but also with other parts that you might otherwise think were interchangeable such as the fuel distributor/metering unit.

There are many potential problems that could cause your symptoms... Lambda probe, failed reducer, incorrect reducer pressure, failed distributor/metering unit, ignition system problems, EGR problems. Far less likely but possible electronic parts such as the rpm filter.

I've had a bit of a look around on this forum and have yet to read from anyone else who seems to understand these systems. Recently a member of this forum posted on LPG forum offering his expertise at repairing one of the electronics units fitted as part of Transit factory LPG systems - He didn't even seem to know that the LPG system uses lambda input, it is by no means certain that the Transits he believed he'd previously sorted by 'fixing' RPM units were actually caused by faulty RPM units. Your particular problem is very likely not to be due to a failing RPM unit.. because your van seems to at least run on LPG...

As said, there is no such thing as a service manual for any factory fitted LPG system.

The petrol diagnostic socket is not associated with the LPG system, you cannot pull error codes associated with running on LPG from OBD2. Some people fall into the trap of trying to use OBD2 to determine problems on LPG and are surprised when live data on lambda readings etc seems to check OK. What they don't realise is that the petrol ECU is fed dummy values while running on LPG, the dummy values always show correct running except sometimes informing on thingslike misfires (Transit systems use a slightly different approach but this is all still strictly true).

Some Nikon Koltec systems (Vauxhalls) have a very simple type of diagnostics built in - but too simple to be useful, better off with a multimeter if you know what you're doing.

A lot of people claim to know how the systems work, especially among LPG installers, but the best most can do is change filters and try swapping in new parts... That kind of approach is almost certain to lead to a more expensive repair (or more likely expense without even managing to repair) than by someone honest who knows what he's doing, especially if the others don't know that even all new parts might not work properly out of the box because the system needs to be calibrated properly too.

There are too many iffs / buts and possible combinations of minor issues that could add up to cause your problems for me for to write a diagnose / repair manual and if I did it would mostly benefit my competition! You haven't said much about how your van drives on LPG - Does it misfire / you say it seems lean? Under what conditions? How does different throttle/rpm seem to effect it? Connect a multimeter directly to lambda signal voltage (meter in van beside you connected to lambda signal and battery earth with a long bit of wire) - When you drive and engine isn't misfiring, what happens with lambda voltage under different throttle/rpms etc? Make sure the voltage keeps shifting while you drive on petrol too...

Got to be said that there comes a point with factory fitted LPG systems that repairs are not really viable - E.g. If system needs a new reducer or other expensive part it can be better to replace the old factory system with a brand new aftermarket system that will be warranted etc. Parts for Nikon Koltec systems can be much more expensive than the equivalent part for an aftermarket system, not all parts necessary for Koltec systems are even necessary for aftermarket systems... No RPM filters, no relays, no OBD emulators, etc. WOuld be a shame to buy a new expensive Koltec component even if the component fixes the running on LPG if 2 weeks later another expensive Koltec component fails - then would be wishing had fitted a new aftermarket system which might have cost less when all said and done.

Simon

[mealic]

If your Transit has a factory fit LPG system it is more than likely to be manufactured by Necam Koltec. There is information on here that is helpful! There is also plenty on the LPG discussion forum and via the internet. We are not specialists but we can offer some relevant help mainly gained through the experience of listening and watching the specialists.
This new guy Simon seems to be the very sort of person that we need on here. Be interesting to know what his fees would be to service a complete system and how long to expect between servicing. Maybe you will ask. Good luck and welcome to the world of the LPG Transit.

[DodgeRover]

Simon is also over on the lpg discussion forum. Always found his posts helpful.

[rogerw]

Lots of good stuff about brakes on here. Zerex coolant is pre diluted and comes in many colours spark plugs seem to last forever.

[serenmor]

Simon, thanks for the info, if I can't find anyone closer, I'll be in touch to see about bringing my van over to you.
The reason I thought it was the filter is that, as you say, when I put my foot down to accelerate, the LPG flow seems to worsen, and the engine stutters badly. When Idling, or going on the flat at a constant speed, the gas system is ok, although with less power than petrol. It feels as though not enough gas is getting through, then it eventually switches to petrol.
Anyway, I'll have a look at some of the points you raised. Does the system have a computer diagnostic, ie, can you plug in the machine and diagnose the fault instantly?

[DodgeRover]

I'm guessing but it's rare for filters to get blocked unless someone has been running from the big propane bottles and they have pumped in a lot of the heavy ends with the liquified gas. Heavy ends are the tarry stuff that you get out when you drain the vapouriser on an old style system.
If Simin isn't near you there is someone called Edward who has posted a fault finding step by step either on here or the lpg forum, I think he trades as mobile lpg or something similar - possibly midlands based.

[Lpgc]

I've fixed a few factory fitted Transit LPG systems since the last time I visited this forum.

What you're up against is the majority of Autogas pros claiming to understand (so able to diagnose/fix) these systems when actually most of them don't understand them and are unlikely to be able to fix them. Visit one of those blokes and it's unlikely they'll admit to not knowing how to fix them, instead you'll usually get charged for a service (filters change) even though the bloke probably knows changing filters won't improve matters at all, and maybe get charged for a diagnostic on top (which since the bloke doesn't understand the system equates to his best guess at what's wrong). Such bloke might tell you the problem seems due to a certain faulty part, and you take that on board because the bloke claims to be a knowledgeable specialist, so you might go on to spend money on replacing the part only to find that didn't fix the problem... The bloke then says 'Looks like another part must be broken too', so you go on to change another part... Replace enough bits and the system will be fixed because you've more or less fitted a new LPG system - but the fix would have cost you a lot more than it should have.

Common scenario: Phone rings, I answer it, customer asks 'Do you do LPG servicing'? I say 'Yes, does it run properly on LPG or is there a problem?'. If they say 'No problem I just thought it time the filters got changed and LPG system serviced' I'll say 'Yes thats a good idea' and we'll arrange a date/time for the service. If the customer tells me there's a problem, I tell them it's unlikely that a filter change/service would fix the problem and that they'd be better off coming for a diagnostic. When you come for a diagnostic I immediately set about finding the cause of the fault and looking into the best way of repairing it rather than going through the motions of changing filters which I know won't repair it.

About 5 times out of 10 when I fix an aftermarket LPG system and about 8 times out of 10 when I fix a factory fitted LPG system the vehicle owner has already visited at least one other (sometimes more than 3 other) LPG system specialists and already had filters changed, maybe also some LPG parts changed, and so far that hasn't fixed the problem. They have usually spent much more at the other places than I would have charged in the first place and I would have fixed it straight away, often without needing to charge for any parts at all.

Problems with LPG systems must be one of only a few types of vehicle problem where the owner often thinks a service will stand a chance of fixing it... You wouldn't be very impressed with a garage if you took your vehicle in with most other types of issues and the garage said ' Well before we start looking for what's wrong we should first change the air filter, oil and oil filter because we expect doing that will probably cure it'. Servicing is preventative maintenance, it prevents bits wearing out, it doesn't miraculously cure bits that have worn out.

I'm LPGC on Lpgforum too.

Simon

[benchmark51]

Does anyone with a LPG transit use any of the " valve saver" systems I see on Ebay? Mine is a factory fit LPG, and can't find anything like it already fitted.

[madmart132]

I don't know if anybody else does but I have 2 lpg transits and neither use it
one has 322,000 and other about 275,000 so guessing they don't need it

[Rowdey]

Mobile lpg thinks I don't need one on my Mk6.. that's good enough for me.


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[benchmark51]

I don't know if anybody else does but I have 2 lpg transits and neither use it
one has 322,000 and other about 275,000 so guessing they don't need it

Thanks for that. Mine is an ex patient transport minibus with 250k miles and runs ok. Apart from my not understanding the basic procedure of using the lpg system. The green bottle lamp keeps flashing and I don't know why.