2.2 TDCi backfiring, kick-back and won't start

[phaedrus]

Hello.

Firstly I apologise for becoming a new member mainly just to (hopefully) pick your brains, but I've a problem with a Transit motor that, despite much research over the past few months, I don't see that anyone else has had and I've now reached a stage with fault-finding that I could do with some help with.

Also, just to make it worse, this motor isn't even fitted in a Transit! I just hope you can forgive me enough to maybe assist with the puzzle.

The vehicle is a 2013 LR with the 2.2 TDCi Transit motor that has done around 30k miles. I purchased it in not going condition so I'm not completely certain what happened before but I've spoken with the previous owner and according to him it just stopped while driving along and failed to start again. Apparently there was no prior warning of a problem, although a few miles before he'd been through a bit of water (not enough to come anywhere near drowning it, and the motor was running fine during and after).

The symptoms I currently have is that it will turn over at around the right speed, compressions sound fine, there are no warning lights, and the ECU seems to be doing everything else fine, but it just won't start.

However it will backfire - loudly - and even kick-back occasionally. Personally I've never before had, or heard of, a diesel backfire myself, but it's clearly possible!

I've scanned for codes, it did have a CKP fault code and so I replaced the sensor with a genuine replacement, unfortunately to no avail. Prior to this I had cleared the code and tried again - the fault code never returned but I replaced the sensor anyway since it's clearly involved with timing (which seems to be the issue in my view).

I have also replaced the fuel, checked the cam sensor (on a 'scope), checked air filter etc etc - all the usual stuff - but nothing has made a difference. I've a new cam sensor on order just in case but I don't really expect it to make a difference at this stage. Fuel pressure is ok from what I can tell.

Anyway if you think it seems odd then hang on 'cos it gets odd-er... it has actually started twice for me BUT on both occasions it appeared to exhaust through the air intake (quite a lot of smoke which I assumed to be unburnt fuel from lengthy cranking with no start ejecting out of the intake grill). The start occurred directly after a kick-back and so I have assumed that the motor was running backwards. It ran for just a few seconds and then stopped, the tachometer was showing around 1500RPM (in the right direction!). Frankly if I hadn't seen this myself I'd find it difficult to believe, but I did see it, it did happen. I do wonder if in fact it was turning the right way and there's somethng up with the EGR valve but with the backfiring, kicking back etc I keep coming back to it running in reverse - and no I didn't try putting it in gear to confirm

So my conclusion is, as I've alluded to before, that it's a timing problem... but the components appear fine, the CKP mount is not damaged, the flywheel looks fine (from what I could see using a borescope to look at it), it turns over evenly, and there is just nothing physical to suggest anything awry so I'm somewhat puzzled.

I'm now very reluctant to carry on turning it over because it could damage something (the kickback and backfiring can be quite severe), but naturally I'd really like to get it going.... so i was hoping someone may be able to help me and perhaps have some ideas as to what might be at issue?

Thanks, P.

[loot]

Hi P.

Firstly i hope one of us can help.

Unfortunately and this may just be my lack of experience with any of these other than Ford but I'd like to point out that these engines are quite simple in the fact that they have injectors, crank and cam sensors and fuel pump.

They do have egr, and fuel pressure sensors etc to but after this they are run based on the electronics of the manufacturers that they are fitted to.

You need to read the ecu using the manufacturers kit or generic kit that is good enough.

Vcm1 was capable of reading jlr which was jaguar and land rover at the time I'm thinking, i don't think Ford ids vcm2 will read them unless you change firmware which is another problem altogether:-(

So you'll have to read codes somehow. But ids will read cam and crank sensor synchronisation which tells you if the timing has jumped, if you can find LR scanner that can check sync then that save you having to remove the timing cover to pin the sprockets etc.

If timing has jumped then sometimes it rips the camshaft carrier upwards.

So my advice is to check timing and remove rocker cover (if needed) and look for damage.

From a land rover point of view i am not familiar with it.

[phaedrus]

Thanks Loot.

As far as I'm aware there's not too much that's LR specific - it's just a 2.2 TDCi, hence the enquiry here.

I will check out IDS. At one stage I did look around to see what Ford software there was and I'm fairly sure that the 'official' package would read the LR (I guess Ford owned them at the time so that makes sense), perhaps that was IDS - I'm sure I'll be enlightened after exercising Google for a couple of minutes. Presently I've been using an Autel MaxiDiag which knows about the vehicle and is quite a reasonable unit, but probably isn't as good as the real thing.

I'd prefer to avoid taking the front off if possible, but will do so if need be. I am reluctant to think it's jumped a tooth or two because (1) there's no apparent reason for it, and it's a fairly new motor so the chain shouldn't be stretched (2) there's no fault code [I assume if the crank and cam sensor show things weren't where they should be that it would raise a fault code]. It did occur to me that as it's DOHC and there is only one cam sensor the 'other' cam could be out a tooth or two. If it were out I can't see it being too far 'cos it doesn't sound 'wrong' when it's winding over and of course it did run briefly, albeit seemingly in the wrong direction.

I guess if the cam covers can come off without too much effort (I'm not presently near it to check) it might be easier than taking the front off the motor - but I'd need to know where an index lobe or some other mark should be pointing for each cam when it's at (say) TDC. Do you know if there's any such detail around?

Cheers, P.

[ake]

Back firing suggests incorrect timing.
Has chain jumped?

[Punto443]

This will be a euro5?

Oil pump failure????? Causing piston/bore damage? Loss of compression and crank case back pressure?

[phaedrus]

Ouch! Don't like the sound of that - but I'm not certain there's any loss of compression so hopefully that's not the issue. I does turn over evenly so I'm reasonably sure there's no individual piston/rings/bore failure.

BTW I expect it would be Euro5.

@ake I'm inclined to agree, although I find it difficult to believe this 'just happened while driving along', hence my puzzlement and search for other possible reasons. I was hoping to find a way of working out for sure if the cam timing was ok without having to pull the front off - per my reply to Loot I would have thought the cam/crank sensor interaction would have worked this out and put up a dtc, but perhaps not.

Oh well, I might have to get my hands dirty this coming weekend - anything particular to look out for when taking the front off? No springs to go 'sproing' and get lost for ever?

Cheers, P.

[AndyG]

Petrol at last fill

[welshwomble]

Hi, only just joined but had to suggest you check out muppet99 post in another thread which may throw you a lifeline or solution etc

Regards Chris

[knobby1]

Give it a sniff of easy-start...if it runs ok on that, the cam timing must close to right ...you'll then know what it's not.

Lord Knobrot

[phaedrus]

@AndyG - sorry I should have mentioned that I completely drained and re=filled the tank (with diesel!) but a good thought, thanks. I've never done this, fortunately, but I'd surmise the result would be more like a runaway or a really big bang!?

@knobby1 - interesting thought. On the whole I'm a bit reluctant to use ether on a modern diesel (still do for one of my generators and the BTD6 but they're old school), I've generally felt that's not a good idea? I supposed I'd have to directly wire to the starter 'cos I wouldn't want the pump/injectors running, hmmm.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion this is not a common problem with these motors and that (it would be my luck!) I'm possibly the first one to encounter it. I am inclined to the view that It would be good to find a way to check the cam timing, preferably without taking the front off, before going too much further. Perhaps a degree wheel, which i've still got after all these years, and a check of cam lobe position/valve operation might work. Assuming of course that it's easier to take the cam covers off and see the valve caps and cam, and there's sufficient data available?

The more i think about it using ether, if the cam timing were out, could result in a very violent backfire/kick-back that might damage it irrepairably - hence better perhaps to check that first. If the timing were ok then maybe at that stage it [ether] could be used to determine if the injection timing is correct.

Thanks for the dialogue, it's great to tease this issue out. Hopefully too something will come out of it that'll help others in the future as well.

Cheers, P.

[g-man]

had this on my connect last year.........sometimes it would lose power and backfire loudly tho' not like a petrol,more muffled and shoving out a load of black smoke........4 fault codes for the egr valve,found problem to be the egr servo

[ned]

As you bought this as a non runner nobody other than the previous owner knows what had happened to it, if it was mine I would have the spanners out and take the timing chain cover off if that's all in line I would then take the rocker cover off.

Some times the answer can be staring at you. N

[phaedrus]

@welshwomble - had a look at the thread (black smoke?), not sure it's relevant to this issue but perhaps I'm missing something, or did you mean the 'free ids' thing?

@g-man - I think I will pull the egr and check it's not open before tackling the engine front. I still struggle to believe it ran backwards, the only other explanation that I can see is that the egr was open and with back pressure in the exhaust post egr I guess it could have exited via the intake somehow. All seems a bit dubious but I've no real data on what state the system is meant to be in during the starting process so there's a certain amount of conjecture - I note there were no codes for egr. Also - did yours actually fail to start with the faulty valve? Personally I've not much experience with egr, most of my vehicles are too old, or they use a mechanical system that's, er, not given much trouble shall we say

@nedforceone. Yes, I agree that makes sense, just trying to explore all options before starting down that route however - probably fruitlessly but ya just never know!

Othewise thanks guys, btw no mention of any nasties in taking the front off so assume it should be fairly straightforward then (says he hopefully)? Guessing that it's not likely to be as easy as any of my Cortinas though...

Cheers, P.

[amlav]

Try to spin the starter only (with no ignition on) . If no air pressure comes out on the inlets or suction on exaust's than timing more likely would be ok.
I would still start with compression test than go trough the timing checks including chain , guides , sprockets . There are timing marks on chain and sprockets (can't go wrong). Crankshaft has to be aligned from flywheel FIRST .
There is a lot of info here , don't be afraid there is nothing to pop out of your engine unexpectedly .
Cheers,
Andrei

[walt1984]

If you dont like the idea if easy i remember someone saying use hair spray or carb cleaner.

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