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Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

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Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby jamtey » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:33 pm

Hi all, first post here! :D

My issue seems to be a common one but with some slight differences, I have read and reread the forum until my eyes bled! :twisted:

I brought a 2001 Transit SWB 75hp just over three weeks ago.
It has rust, which I plan to deal with over time but ran well.
I did 200 plus miles in it without issue, smooth and and steady and expectedly slower on hills.
Decided to blank off the EGR to cut down on reported smoke on gear changes etc and coincidentally noticed that the turbo actuator solenoid vacuum hose was disconnected. I connected it back up and the van now flies along really well and the EGR blank sems to have stopped any smoking.
Ran for 200ish miles with a smile on my face.

However (isn't there always one?) last Saturday (today Tuesday) I went on a 70 mile motorway journey in it with the kids and a bout 30 miles in the glow plug light came on and the engine cut out and I had to pull over in hard shoulder.
Restarted after less than 5 mins and ran the rest of journey really well. Return journey the same, mainly very well but cut out as I was overtaking!
Read up on here the various problems that might cause this, which seem to range from fuel filter to worn through wiring.
Sunday morning I discovered that the original TDDi engine has been changed to a Mondeo 130 TDCi unit, the horror, I have spent years avoiding TDCIs! Spent rest of the day trying to diagnose issues.

Monday it went in for pre-booked service with my local mechanic. He left it at my place so I got to it in the evening, with a note saying fault diagnosed as pump pressure issue.
I couldn't get it to start and run, it would start up but cutout soon after, after say 8 times I could keep it running by holding the revs up but didn't sound as smooth as it did and would cutout if I let the revs drop.
Eventually I got it to run enough so that I could take it on a 10 mile test drive, where it cut out and died about six times.
Also occasional new issue added in of the glow plug light coming on but being able to drive the van, but with the radiator fan constantly on and the temperature gauge at zero.
I then removed the EGR blank I made, took it for a 15 mile drive, oh joy it went smooth as a nut with plenty of power, but right near the end it cutout once, a one off I hoped!
I was happier that I could drive it to work this morning, except that in the first mile it cut out six times!

This issue is now making me angry as I need the vehicle for getting to work.
I find it hard to believe that the pump is at fault as when the Transit runs it is spot on, it has a new filter, EGR blank doesn't effect the issue and I can't see any obvious bad wiring.


Can anyone here suggest what might be going on please?

Many thanks for reading, James
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby ned » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:27 pm

You need to get the codes read that will point you in the right direction,

Sounds like one of more injectors are at fault, do a leak back test to see what there health is like, also drain some fuel out of the fuel filter and check for swarf/metal filings if any present then your pump is fubar :( unfortunately if it is the pump it takes the injectors out with it :? I

Poor starting and rough/not idling could be the fuel filter tdci use 2 micron filter, the filter head could be leaking air, you can bypass the filter temporarily by putting the fuel lines into a can of Diesel and see if it starts and idles any better,

Do you know by who and when the engine was changed?

Also check the wiring from the pump for breaks inside the plastic casing especially around the starter motor area.

Getting the codes read is a must, note that mk6 transits are not obd2 compliant so not all code readers work. N
Last edited by ned on Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RUST IS LIGHTER THEN CARBON FIBRE

57 transit 85t260 2.2 swb, moondust silver.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=209987

03 transit 125t280 2.0 tdci swb 229,000 miles.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=168296
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby ned » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:31 pm

Also if you glow plug light flashes when trying to start the van it will never start :wink: N
RUST IS LIGHTER THEN CARBON FIBRE

57 transit 85t260 2.2 swb, moondust silver.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=209987

03 transit 125t280 2.0 tdci swb 229,000 miles.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=168296
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby jamtey » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:06 pm

Many thanks for that info Ned.

I will try and get the codes again, but I know the mech said it was pump pressure issue.
The filter will be wrong as I ordered a Di type, so will need to get a TDCi one now

I get everything you are saying there, but the van runs smooth as nut when it does run, which is putting me off mechanical injector/pump issues.
I'm even wondering if the control module could be playing up?

Tonight it started and ran first time, the glow plug light was flashing constantly (from position II and even before firing up) and it ran ok with it on, radiator fan came on immediately and the no temperature gauge thing again. Did sound a bit noisier at the top end, but seems to be getting oil ok. However, didn't dare drive it tonight.

The issues just seem sporadic.

I haven't a clue when or who swapped the engine, it ran really well so hoping it was done properly, would it entail changing PCM/ECU and wiring do you know?
PS the van isn't worth the cost of injectors or pump, so would probably opt for refitting a sound TDDi lump.
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby ned » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:05 am

Engine swap to tdci would have required engine, wiring loom, pcm and if fitted icu.

Low rail pressure is what you will have, on the tdci the injectors control the fuel the pump is just a pump to keep the demand up, if you are suffering low rail pressure 9 times out of 10 it injector related, a leak back test is free to do and will show up a poorly injector, reman injectors are about 120sovs from pf Jones.

I had the same issue, van ran great then cut out when I demanded more power, this gradually got worse until I put a new set of injectors in now its like a rocket ship again. N
RUST IS LIGHTER THEN CARBON FIBRE

57 transit 85t260 2.2 swb, moondust silver.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=209987

03 transit 125t280 2.0 tdci swb 229,000 miles.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=168296
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby bambi mk 1 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:55 am

jamtey wrote:Many thanks for that info Ned.Tonight it started and ran first time, the glow plug light was flashing constantly (from position II and even before firing up) and it ran ok with it on, radiator fan came on immediately and the no temperature gauge thing again. Did sound a bit noisier at the top end, but seems to be getting oil ok. However, didn't dare drive it tonight.



.

You need to check the wiring to the temp switch and or change the switch .Its behind the pulley gearbox side of the engine :) You can just plug the new one in and leave it on top ofthe engine to check it is ok and then replace
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby jamtey » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:47 pm

Thanks again for the responses, that's a great thing about this forum!

I will get a new CHT sensor as a matter of course I think, the wiring is good.
I'm hoping to avoid new/refurb injectors as the van cost a grand and I have other things to spend on it - however if it has to come to that...

I took it for another spin tonight, almost twenty miles, it only cut out once (with the accompanying glow plug light) about five miles from the end.
I didn't experience the permanent glow plug light and rad fan running on at this journey at all, but that extra noise or rattle is still present and quite noticeable and the power feels a little down and not as responsive as when it's at its best. Other than that it ran well.

The mechanic is going to try and have another look over tomorrow.

The thing that puzzles me, is if it is injectors wouldn't the problem always be there or be a lot more prominent?
It's so annoying that it is such an on off problem.
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby ned » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:00 pm

Now now your trying to add common sense to the devils work :lol: :lol:

The Delphi fuel system is a law upon itself, when the injectors start to fail there's not common pattern other then it will cut out at the most inappropriate time, over taking, going up hill, racing 75's etc, these engines can cut out once in 3 weeks or every 10 seconds :roll: what you have to remember is the early tdci's were new technology in the diesel engine and had its faults from day 1.

Without the actually codes its all guess work, Injectors are a common fault hence why I mentioned it, also other then the temperature and fan your symptoms sound very similar to what my van was doing.

You say the wiring is good but have you stripped back the plastic and inspected each wire? It took me 7 1/2 hours to find a 1mm break in my fuel pump wire. N
RUST IS LIGHTER THEN CARBON FIBRE

57 transit 85t260 2.2 swb, moondust silver.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=209987

03 transit 125t280 2.0 tdci swb 229,000 miles.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=168296
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby jamtey » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:21 pm

ned wrote:Now now your trying to add common sense to the devils work :lol: :lol:

The Delphi fuel system is a law upon itself, when the injectors start to fail there's not common pattern other then it will cut out at the most inappropriate time, over taking, going up hill, racing 75's etc


...twice the power with half the reliability :lol:

Thanks again for the info.
Mechanic reckons the extra noise might be one of the injectors being damaged.

Still haven't had the codes re-read to confirm yet, and haven't checked the wiring that closely but intend to do this tomorrow.
I'm guessing it's a case carefully tracing the cables from the back of the pump to the PCM in the bulkhead?
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby jamtey » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:07 pm

I managed to read the faults today using a newly acquired F-Super 2 scan tools,
this is what I got,

[color=#FF4000]===PCM DTC P1211===
Code: P1211 - Open TP sensor circuit.

Module: Powertrain Control Module

Diagnostic Trouble Code details

Injector Control Pressure (ICP) out of Self-Test range.

--Possible Causes--
- Short to Ground.
- Stuck IPR.
- Damaged IPR.
- Damaged PCM.

===END PCM DTC P1211===

===PCM DTC P1664===
Code: P1664 - FIP malfunction

Module: Powertrain Control Module

Diagnostic Trouble Code details

FIP malfunction

This DTC may be caused by :

FIP timing chain tension

PCM

FIP

Carry out the CAN Test.

The CAN Test can be selected from the Toolbox or these Guided Diagnostic menus: No Start No Crank or Driveability.

===END PCM DTC P1664===

===PCM DTC P0251===
Code: P0251 - Injector pump fuel metering control malfunction

Module: Powertrain Control Module

Diagnostic Trouble Code details

Injector pump fuel metering control malfunction

This DTC may be caused by :

There is a fuel rail pressure control fault.

no fuel in tank

Restriction between fuel pump and fuel tank

Blocked fuel filter.

Blocked kinked or crushed fuel lines

Fuel Metering Control Valve/Wiring

Injector fault

For additional information refer to:

TSB No. 46/2005

Perform the Fuel Pressure and Leakback test.

FIP malfunction

===END PCM DTC P0251===

===PCM DTC P0251===
Code: P0251 - Injector pump fuel metering control malfunction

Module: Powertrain Control Module

Diagnostic Trouble Code details

Injector pump fuel metering control malfunction

This DTC may be caused by :

There is a fuel rail pressure control fault.

no fuel in tank

Restriction between fuel pump and fuel tank

Blocked fuel filter.

Blocked kinked or crushed fuel lines

Fuel Metering Control Valve/Wiring

Injector fault

For additional information refer to:

TSB No. 46/2005

Perform the Fuel Pressure and Leakback test.

FIP malfunction

===END PCM DTC P0251===
[/color]

I'm pretty sure the fuel is flowing properly from the tank, the filter is always full and when it runs it runs great.
This sounds to me like either a cable worn somewhere (which I only quickly checked for) or the IPR, which I believe is the fuel metering valve which goes on the back of the pump?

I can't get the scanning tool to run live data diagnosis yet, unsure if it can for the year of vehicle or whether it is me!

Any further help much appreciated!
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby twin wheel camper » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:43 pm

I feel for you I really do but thank f**k I have a TD mk5 with no electrics that list would make me keep my mk5 for 20 more years noise rust etc pales in comparison with the problems you can get with more modern diesels.
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby jamtey » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:05 pm

Thanks - I think! :shock: :lol:
It does knock the stuffing out of you when you spent money on something, knowing that more will be spent on rust issues etc, not thinking that I would be running into potentially spending 100s more pounds on engine issues.


I'm still seriously wondering whether to put a TDDI lump back in, I know there is a complete 100ps with 70k nearby going for spares/repairs.
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby twin wheel camper » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:20 pm

I’m not a mk6 or mk7 fan but from reading on here the tddi is a lot less trouble than the tdci that’s for sure,
And as there is plenty of rotten mk6 transits around maybe that could be the answer considering the tdci WILL come play up again that’s a certainty :(
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby andz327 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:24 pm

ned wrote:Also if you glow plug light flashes when trying to start the van it will never start :wink: N
Mr Ned am i missing something here......2001 75hp .....and somebody has changed it to a 130tdci....Eh!
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Re: Transit Mk6 with TDCi cutting out erratic

Postby ned » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:28 pm

andz327 wrote:
ned wrote:Also if you glow plug light flashes when trying to start the van it will never start :wink: N
Mr Ned am i missing something here......2001 75hp .....and somebody has changed it to a 130tdci....Eh!


Aye it sounds like someone has dropped a 2003 Mondeo 130 tdci engine in it, heavens knows why.

I still say it needs 1 or more injectors going off them codes. N
RUST IS LIGHTER THEN CARBON FIBRE

57 transit 85t260 2.2 swb, moondust silver.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=209987

03 transit 125t280 2.0 tdci swb 229,000 miles.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=168296
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