Transitmania 6 @ Billing Aquadrome Aug 22nd to 24th 2014


Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Use this forum to post technical questions & problems about any Transit

Moderator: Luke

Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby twincamsham » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:55 pm

Hello Folks

Just joined the forum,
Thought i may as well since every google search i do leads me here anyway !!
At least like this i discuss online and may help others while sorting my own problems.

Quick outline on my history

Vehicles - transit tddi 2000 mk 6 90PS tipper truck.Vw T5 4 motion remapped, 2.2 dti vauxhall engined Sierra...
Location - Mid France
Profession - Diesel mechanic and Auto Electrician

Renovating an old stone house here so decided buy a tipper truck, was forever on the road ferrying stuff by trailer and i can squeeze 4 tonne in the transit which is very handy,

Its my first transit but i am a diesel mechanic by trade so i did the usual checks and it seemed to be ok,

However im already starting to have problems, The rattle through the gear lever and clutch pedal means the Dual mass flywheel is on the way out, it refused to crank over for me - getting slower and slower even with twin batteries connected so i cleaned the starter out of filings- from the dual mass f/wheel and thats sorted albeit 'pronloged' the problem, (That flywheel is quite a job so im in no hurry do it)

Modifications to date and problems...

Iv fitted spots and elctric windows from a 99 escort that i sent to the scrappers last week, also a neat single din stero conversion was put in to replace the dead original unit thanks to ebay.

I cut the egr valve clean out of the inlet tract as it had near halfed the passage way with carbon- i did not unplug the valve or burst the diaphram so all is as OEM bar it is missing the rod passing through and a blanking plate installed. ( the ECU does not know and there is not a vacuum leak )

I also tested the boost and its blowing 0.7 bar which is nothing, i wound the wastegate as far as it would go closed and it improved slightly but its still very much a low blow, this engine is 17.5 -1 compression so in my books it doesnt need protection with such a small turbo it needs all it can get


My main problem that hopefully someone can help on is this.

When i start the van - it fires up enthusiastically then cuts out near right away, the only way i can avoid this is to catch the revs and hold it at say 1500 rpm until it gets some heat in the system, after a while i can let it idle- but even full lock of the power steering will stall it- its also lumpy and hunting , Fuel filter and all others have been replaced, it does not appear to be sucking air into the system anywhere. after approx 3 mins running all is normal - no cutting out and will start right away,
There is also no excessive smoke of any colour on startup but it does irratate your eyes so it would not seem too lean..

With the normal DI diesel knock its hard to know if the pump is in cold start mode ( advanced )

Heater plugs - condition unknown but a friend says their work transit fires up any temperture heated or not heated and my problem lasts several minutes so it kind of rules them out as they only glow red for 20 seconds odd and then shes on her own.

I would imagine it is down to a temperture sender of sorts as the ECU does not seem to know its cold,

While cutting the EGR valve out i noticed another small brass sensor in the same inlet tract, it seemed to be a basic air temp sensor of sorts ? it was so covered in carbon theres no way it could have worked. Anyone know what this is ? i took the part number off it. does the ECU use merely the coolant temp sensor to define eng temp - i presume this sensor is different to the temp gauge sensor, maybe its worth changing. There is no conventional air mass meter as i think the TDCI may have.

Anyway i have not done much investiagting due to all the other problems but id like to sort out that start up problem.

The other question i have is should this van be so slow ??

i know its probably 2.5 tonnes and only 90hp but its like coaxing along something from the 70s era !- i hold all the traffic up even when empty, 50-60 mph is a battle to hold and takes much cog swapping, This is a new generation diesel with double overhead cam 16v with fly by wire injection surely it should be adequate.

Yes the diff ratio is terrible and the double wheels probably dont help but it should still be able hold motorway speeds in this day and age . the accelerator pedal seems to make it louder... but no faster ! To add to all that it likes its diesel too , very much so, usually you get power and high consumption or gutless and a miser on fuel, this thing is gutless and a pig on fuel.
Even if the diff ratio was that bad i would have thought id be able pull like a train in 5th but it often runs out of puff for 5th gear.

in comparisom to the Transporter T5 PD of same eng capacity i would say there is maybe ten times less power in the tddi, ok there not in the same level of engineering or price but this cant be normal performance or is it ? With a two ton trailer on the T5 i can accelerate at more or less the same rate,can just hear everything working much harder,

If i wanted to go fast id buy a sports car but torque there to pull the load to motorway speeds would be nice for my 5 grand cash

check engine lights come on with ignition and goes out accordingly on startup- if i drive the absolute bo**ocks out of it through every gear- at high revs in perhaps 3rd it will make the alternator belt momentarily screech like a kickback and suddenly the glow plug light will flash and it looses a little more power... key off and on again takes the light off.

Therfore i have never had it on a fault reader, no doubt there are some lodged but according to the light nothing active, you would think with this performance it would be a fair obvious fault. maybe im expecting too much from it and all is ok.

A friend in france here has a FWD 85/280 Transit which i think is the 2.0 tddi , we ferryied a load of firewood each last week and it seemed he was waiting for me all the time on the road and i should prob have had more power than him, i was crawling along and the timber was dry and not super heavy.

I thought of tuning boxing it, but id rather see what its like as standard first - (That is if it is not running as standard now )

I can hear the turbo spin up and is boosting, I would have thought if the timing was out it would need to be a full tooth out on the chain which would make it run terrible all the time if run at all, is it worth checking timing or anything..

What do people with experiece of transits think of this performance normal or not?

I like the way it drives and handles, its not a rust box and is very useful, but the grunt is really lacking and shamful when even the big Euro 5 artic trucks have to sit behind to wait and oppurtuity to overtake me on the B roads!


few other questions .

If i can source an instrument panel with a rev counter in a breakers yard will it plug right into my loom and rev counter work - (Its not the digital dash version and i have no rev counter at present )

Would the 6 speed gearbox from the newer 140 hp transit fit to the tddi engine, as far as i know the tdci is same block so thats probably a yes, Has anyone gone to the trouble to source and fit a 6 speed ? are both 5th and 6th 'overdrive' ratios - eg turn faster than the crank shaft
.
Is a diff with a decent ratio hard to locate, i think a twin axle box van with a 4.6 is what i need to replace my 5.8 ?

Is a tuning box worth doing - Have people tried a DIY attempt with resistors which is what most tuning boxs are.
I have been told the tddi responds well to tuning- better than the tdci. i can't see the point in mapping this truck at present as its not even adequate now and its a lot of money to take a chance on.


final question while im at it, the tipper lift cyclinder is leaking hyd oil around the neck seal on the ram, i suppose there was not one particular ram kit used on all transits as its not a factory thing and it would depend on the maker of the cylnder ?
the yellow electric control is made by SPX fluid power solutions if that gives any clues, I want to try get a kit to rebuild the cyclinder if poss.

Sorry for too much information but it can be better supply a lot to cut out the guessers with not a lot of hands on knowledge!

Thanks in advance and sleep happy in the knowledge that you have MUCH more power than me !! :?
twincamsham
Transit Fan
Transit Fan
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Sauze Vaussais FR

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby jay » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:03 am

need codes read first of all..
when was it last servied including fuel filter?
NO the 6 speed box wont fit straight on..
4 tonne on a transit? well thats overweight for starters unless you mean gtw with your trailor..
glow plugs arent needed unless its a few degrees below 0 even then it will still start but needs a bit of cranking over...a lot of people remove the glow plug relay in the fuse box as the power drain can sometimes make a tired engine/fuel pump harder to start
yes the rev counter clocks will plug in and work..
tipper ram is fitted by the body builder so easy to seals at any hydraulic place.
if you really wanted high power best way is buy a high power transit in the first place..

and lastly vantuner is the best for tuning transits
100ps mk6 in moondust silver with mk7 front end
User avatar
jay
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 7554
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:24 pm
Location: Redditch.

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby winterheating » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:08 am

This van had 170k on it and when battery charged correctly, used to start instantly the same as any others do in any temp.
:arrow: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57908&hilit=100ps+cold+starting

The only ones that dont start instantly are the ones with a problem, but i would think the main problems like always have been for years and years is low battery voltage, wrong/crap engine oil, tight starters, bad main and earth connections.......
User avatar
winterheating
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 10676
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Co.Durham Darlington

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby twincamsham » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:12 pm

Hello Folks thanks on replies


Regarding the starting, i should mention that the initial startup is not the problem, its that as soon as it fires it just dies out after about 3 seconds when its cold, that is to say its not while it is cranking so it would sort of illiminate low battery voltage.
The slow cranking problem is the starter which keeps filling with debris from the DMF.

Iv just completed a service including all filters and dropping the antifreeze for the winter, used a 5w 40 semi synthetic, Total i think was the brand, wouldnt be ultra important in that stove anyway as its not unit injector

I did consider buying the 140 hp transit but if i was going to do that i was aswell to get another Vw T5 in a pickup or an LT35 as around same dollars, And i had expected that even a 90 hp would be 'adequate' for my needs,

The performance is terrible when empty , Full is a different story, iv had a couple of cubic metres of sand/ gravel in the back along with 20 bags of cement, i live in the sticks so one can do that. it got the stuff home alright in fairness to it.

The worst thing is that its around a 50km trip each way to my builders merchants and its all flat and easy for a vehicle but she struggles with it.

Well if they really are that slow then il just have to live with it i suppose, do you think its worth reading the codes ? what would that tell us if there is no DTC light on or flashing ?

is there a reliable scantool on ebay as going to a french ford garage would not be an option.

Does anyone on here drive this same truck, they would be the ones to say if its runnign correctly or not
Cheers
Rory
twincamsham
Transit Fan
Transit Fan
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Sauze Vaussais FR

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby winterheating » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:09 pm

The 90ps allthough the lowest power apart from the early 75ps RWD is quick enough when right, my 90ps jumbo carrys well and has plenty of pull.

The oil should be 5w-30 semi or 10w-30 semi in warmer climates.

Make sure you get the correct RED coolant 50/50 mix any other type will react with the residue thats soaked into the aluminium and cause corrosion.
User avatar
winterheating
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 10676
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Co.Durham Darlington

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby winterheating » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:05 pm

twincamsham wrote:Hello Folks

Just joined the forum,
Thought i may as well since every google search i do leads me here anyway !!
At least like this i discuss online and may help others while sorting my own problems.

Quick outline on my history

Vehicles - transit tddi 2000 mk 6 90PS tipper truck.Vw T5 4 motion remapped, 2.2 dti vauxhall engined Sierra...
Location - Mid France
Profession - Diesel mechanic and Auto Electrician

Renovating an old stone house here so decided buy a tipper truck, was forever on the road ferrying stuff by trailer and i can squeeze 4 tonne in the transit which is very handy,

Its my first transit but i am a diesel mechanic by trade so i did the usual checks and it seemed to be ok,

However im already starting to have problems, The rattle through the gear lever and clutch pedal means the Dual mass flywheel is on the way out, it refused to crank over for me - getting slower and slower even with twin batteries connected so i cleaned the starter out of filings- from the dual mass f/wheel and thats sorted albeit 'pronloged' the problem, (That flywheel is quite a job so im in no hurry do it)

The gearbox can be dropped in less than an hour it really isnt that bad, worst thing is if captive bolts at the front or captive nut at the back move in the chassis for the engine bed, but front bolts can be tacked back and you can get into the chassis ok for the rear nuts

Modifications to date and problems...

Iv fitted spots and elctric windows from a 99 escort that i sent to the scrappers last week, also a neat single din stero conversion was put in to replace the dead original unit thanks to ebay.

I cut the egr valve clean out of the inlet tract as it had near halfed the passage way with carbon- i did not unplug the valve or burst the diaphram so all is as OEM bar it is missing the rod passing through and a blanking plate installed. ( the ECU does not know and there is not a vacuum leak )

These egr position sensors are common for failing and putting them into limp mode, a resistor to replace it would be a better idea, also the head inlet ports and intake manifold will be just as bad so worth cleaning them out

I also tested the boost and its blowing 0.7 bar which is nothing, i wound the wastegate as far as it would go closed and it improved slightly but its still very much a low blow, this engine is 17.5 -1 compression so in my books it doesnt need protection with such a small turbo it needs all it can get

Should be 19bar compression :? adjusting the waste gate wont help as if there is over boost the fuel is cut by pm anyway, im sure people have experimented and not been able to increase boost succsesfully. only way is mapping i think


My main problem that hopefully someone can help on is this.

When i start the van - it fires up enthusiastically then cuts out near right away, the only way i can avoid this is to catch the revs and hold it at say 1500 rpm until it gets some heat in the system, after a while i can let it idle- but even full lock of the power steering will stall it- its also lumpy and hunting , Fuel filter and all others have been replaced, it does not appear to be sucking air into the system anywhere. after approx 3 mins running all is normal - no cutting out and will start right away,
There is also no excessive smoke of any colour on startup but it does irratate your eyes so it would not seem too lean..

With the DMF failing it could be causing the crank sensor to play up, as all the metal bits stick to it, but with you saying diesel smoke and running lumpy it could be injectors failing, which is normally only when the fuel pumps start to break down, which then cause bore wash or crack the pistons. I would do a fuel return sample check for swarf. Just run the fuel from return of pump into container before filter housing and block the return connection on left rear of housing to stop the air being drawn straight in and airlocking.


With the normal DI diesel knock its hard to know if the pump is in cold start mode ( advanced )

Only when these sound diesel knocky its when timing is out, or the fuel timing solonoid is faulty (common)

Heater plugs - condition unknown but a friend says their work transit fires up any temperture heated or not heated and my problem lasts several minutes so it kind of rules them out as they only glow red for 20 seconds odd and then shes on her own.

Yes as youll know, a good direct injected diesel should start without heat, they are fitted to the mk6 for emmision reasons unlike the mk5 di that didnt have them, they reduce the extra emmisions that you get when starting a cold diesel engine.
They stay on different time depending on the CHT sensor , then enter after glow period when started to keep the emmissions down.


I would imagine it is down to a temperture sender of sorts as the ECU does not seem to know its cold, yeah cylinder head temp sensor right at rear of head against fire wall they are a nightmare to change.
While cutting the EGR valve out i noticed another small brass sensor in the same inlet tract, it seemed to be a basic air temp sensor of sorts ? it was so covered in carbon theres no way it could have worked. Anyone know what this is ? i took the part number off it. does the ECU use merely the coolant temp sensor to define eng temp - i presume this sensor is different to the temp gauge sensor, maybe its worth changing. There is no conventional air mass meter as i think the TDCI may have.

Yes your right that is a seperate air temp sensor so the PCM knows the density of the air, the type with that seperate sensor is the earlier setup, and the map sensor pipe should be just next to it on the EGR valve, follow the tube and make sure its intact and connect to the MAP sensor. Ive seen a few now were people have messed with the vac tube that operates the EGR valve and this MAP sensor tube and got them mixed up :roll:
Later ones like the TDCI also have a combined T-MAP sensor air temp and boost in one.


Anyway i have not done much investiagting due to all the other problems but id like to sort out that start up problem.

The other question i have is should this van be so slow ??

NOt a rocket but not slow at all really.
All though being a chassis cab you may have the 5.77 or something rear diff that actually red lines at 85mph :shock:

i know its probably 2.5 tonnes and only 90hp but its like coaxing along something from the 70s era !- i hold all the traffic up even when empty, 50-60 mph is a battle to hold and takes much cog swapping, This is a new generation diesel with double overhead cam 16v with fly by wire injection surely it should be adequate.

Yeah something wrong


Yes the diff ratio is terrible and the double wheels probably dont help but it should still be able hold motorway speeds in this day and age . the accelerator pedal seems to make it louder... but no faster ! To add to all that it likes its diesel too , very much so, usually you get power and high consumption or gutless and a miser on fuel, this thing is gutless and a pig on fuel.
Even if the diff ratio was that bad i would have thought id be able pull like a train in 5th but it often runs out of puff for 5th gear.

Yeah as above prob the 5.77 diff would benefit the 5.16 diff, to keep the pulling right rather than going to the 4.63, these ratios are roughly right but prob not exact


in comparisom to the Transporter T5 PD of same eng capacity i would say there is maybe ten times less power in the tddi, ok there not in the same level of engineering or price but this cant be normal performance or is it ? With a two ton trailer on the T5 i can accelerate at more or less the same rate,can just hear everything working much harder,

As with any vehicle it all depends what the engine is pushing out they all have differnt power outputs for same engines.

If i wanted to go fast id buy a sports car but torque there to pull the load to motorway speeds would be nice for my 5 grand cash

Just a thought with it being a 2000 model it could possibly be a 75ps, check your reg here http://www.fordetis.co.uk

check engine lights come on with ignition and goes out accordingly on startup- if i drive the absolute bo**ocks out of it through every gear- at high revs in perhaps 3rd it will make the alternator belt momentarily screech like a kickback and suddenly the glow plug light will flash and it looses a little more power... key off and on again takes the light off.

Hmmm thats not right, there should be something stored on PCM.

Therfore i have never had it on a fault reader, no doubt there are some lodged but according to the light nothing active, you would think with this performance it would be a fair obvious fault. maybe im expecting too much from it and all is ok.

No not always there is a few things it could be without being blatently obvious

A friend in france here has a FWD 85/280 Transit which i think is the 2.0 tddi , we ferryied a load of firewood each last week and it seemed he was waiting for me all the time on the road and i should prob have had more power than him, i was crawling along and the timber was dry and not super heavy.

The FWD 2.0's are better for performance

I thought of tuning boxing it, but id rather see what its like as standard first - (That is if it is not running as standard now )

Best having it totally right first, then you could get an economy remap far better than any tuning box http://www.vantuner.com

I can hear the turbo spin up and is boosting, I would have thought if the timing was out it would need to be a full tooth out on the chain which would make it run terrible all the time if run at all, is it worth checking timing or anything..

You shouldnt really here the turbo, you maybe have a split turbo pipe, intake manifold or intercooler.
Yes its defo worth checking the timing and getting a new timing chain tensioner but search which one as ford have cocked up on these there only £50 quid just treat it as a timing belt change.
The inlet or crank could easily be out and you wouldnt notice the slight different engine tone :idea:


What do people with experiece of transits think of this performance normal or not?

Not
I like the way it drives and handles, its not a rust box and is very useful, but the grunt is really lacking and shamful when even the big Euro 5 artic trucks have to sit behind to wait and oppurtuity to overtake me on the B roads!


few other questions .

If i can source an instrument panel with a rev counter in a breakers yard will it plug right into my loom and rev counter work - (Its not the digital dash version and i have no rev counter at present )

The digi one wont plug in and the ones of your year with rev counter are hard to get hold of, but they can be fiitted from a mondeo diesel if you search it youll see.

Would the 6 speed gearbox from the newer 140 hp transit fit to the tddi engine, as far as i know the tdci is same block so thats probably a yes, Has anyone gone to the trouble to source and fit a 6 speed ? are both 5th and 6th 'overdrive' ratios - eg turn faster than the crank shaft

You need the correct lower ratio diffs to work correctly, changing your diff would be the best route..

Is a diff with a decent ratio hard to locate, i think a twin axle box van with a 4.6 is what i need to replace my 5.8 ?

I as i said above im just going through replying as i go.

Is a tuning box worth doing - Have people tried a DIY attempt with resistors which is what most tuning boxs are.
I have been told the tddi responds well to tuning- better than the tdci. i can't see the point in mapping this truck at present as its not even adequate now and its a lot of money to take a chance on.

As above cheaper, easier and a lot more benefical going with http://www.vantuner.com

final question while im at it, the tipper lift cyclinder is leaking hyd oil around the neck seal on the ram, i suppose there was not one particular ram kit used on all transits as its not a factory thing and it would depend on the maker of the cylnder ?
the yellow electric control is made by SPX fluid power solutions if that gives any clues, I want to try get a kit to rebuild the cyclinder if poss.

Sorry for too much information but it can be better supply a lot to cut out the guessers with not a lot of hands on knowledge!

Not sure on any of the hydraulics

Thanks in advance and sleep happy in the knowledge that you have MUCH more power than me !! :?
User avatar
winterheating
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 10676
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Co.Durham Darlington

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby winterheating » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:09 pm

Again with diesel smoke irritating your eyes could be pointing to split in boost pipes intake or manifold..
User avatar
winterheating
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 10676
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Co.Durham Darlington

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby winterheating » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:05 pm

When an engine runs for 3 seconds then stops its usually points to crank sensor or DMF bits on the crank sensor.
User avatar
winterheating
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 10676
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Co.Durham Darlington

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby angeleye » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:13 am

these hydraulic cylinders are all a standard size so make shouldnt come in to it ...when they refurbish them they cut the cylinder ends off reweld them to a new one,the chrome rods come in standard sizes ,they cut a peice off and machine the ends depending on what is fitted,try wyko,or erik ,should have one of these near you,if rod is scrored its scrap basicly( in france so dont no any hydraulic places)
angeleye
Transit Fanatic
Transit Fanatic
 
Posts: 3958
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:34 pm

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby oldyellar » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:54 am

i have had 4 90 t350 tippers and they are good on power the first two were euro spec with good diff and would cruise on the moterway well the next was one with a 5.88 diff it was good around town no need to take it out of 5th :D but rubbish on the mway my new one does seem a bit down on pulling power copared to the others but it does need a service :roll: i have blaked the egr off but its leaking i bit going to try sort it today and service during the week and c how it goes.
ps seems to be a bit low on power when been running for a few hours any ideas?
chhers john
Why wasn't Rome built in a day?
Becuase I wasn't the Gaffer!
User avatar
oldyellar
Transit Fanatic
Transit Fanatic
 
Posts: 2482
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:38 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby twincamsham » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:10 pm

Thanks winterheating your an absolute ledgend with transits then !

Being also a techincal sort of buck its been a pleasure read your responses which are well thought out rather than blurting the first thing that one might have heard in the pub a few weeks ago !

Some very good info in there and certainly food for thought,
Yes i didnt expect it to be that Underpowered, even with such a low diff ratio it should be a pretty quick up to a certain point and at least be able hold the speed so the investigation continues.
No way it would pull to 85mph unless very downhill , maybe 65-70 after a lot of driving it on
Up to about 3rd gear is ok, after 3rd it seems have a big lack of torque

Something others might find usefull is :

If you experience slow starter cranking due to failed DMF you may not automatically have to put on a new starter, for the sake of 20 Minutes they are very simple to open and clean out,
I did this with mine which i presumed dead and found that the brushs were only 3/4 worn as was the brass bush and it was all basically ok- Dismantle it- do not loose the little ball bearing at the front of the armature.. wash it all out with a powerhose inculding electricals- it will do no harm and Its the only thing that will blow the magnets clean. Lightly Emery your armature and brushs - regrease it with wheel bearting grease and its as good as new and you might get the life of the van out of it if lucky.

Today i examined all boost hoses and they are fine,the fact i can fit a boost gauge and watch it hold boost would verify this,
I can hear the turbo only since i adjusted the wastegate and fitted a new air filter, and by hear it i mean hear it sing,
My T5 is remapped to a claimed 212hp and it sings like a cat even from idle, people say its a sign of a failing turbo but i dont believe that personally because i know both turbos are 100% on the bearings and the impellor blade ends, My opinion is that its a sign of a well run in turbo, eg its floating nicely on good quality oil in its bushes, if you can hear it sing at low revs it means its responsive and ready spin up easilly, a sticky tight turbo is the other end of the scale and that is not desireable at all.


Winterheating- there is no visible smoke on startup- just that i can smell fuel, Today i tried something else, i started it without trying catch it on the throttle, and it kept running, albeit roughly but didnt die.

I dont think this van is miles out of tune, just something is not quite right.

Id say your onto something with the Flywheel sensor since they are a pulse generator sensor ( magnetic) and jusdging by the sh1t in the starter it must all be chock full .
I was looking underneath for it today and couldnt see a sensor in the bellhousing and its sunday so im not touching the dirty thing !
Let me run this by you, if its dual mass - that means the outer of the flywheel ( ring gear etc ) can move independantly slightly +/- degrees of the crank shaft via compressing - extending its internal springs ... if your sensing tdc off the outside of the flywheel with a knackered DMF wouldnt that mean your sensed TDC position is constantly altering as the flywheel rattle around independant several degrees of its center where its bolted to the crank shaft ??

Vehicle is Dublin Irl reg but was able run your check on the VIN number, here is the info,
If the Axle is as origin then it should not be so bad. Usefull website that :)

Primary Features
Build Date: 29.03.2000
Vehicle Line: Transit 2000-2006
Cab Style: Single Cab (2 Door)
Series: 350E Series
Engine: Duratorq DI 2.4 (90PS)
Transmission: 5-Speed Manual Transmission - MT75
Drive: RHD RWD
Axle Ratio: 5.13
Emission: Light Duty Truck Stage III
Territory: (+)"GB"
Paint: Diamond White 73
Interior Fabric: Stylize (-G-C)


If this truck was in limp home mode then it would be very unresponsive to throttle or be relucatant change engine speeds ?
That is not the case with mine, she drives as normal in that aspect.

I thought of the inlet ports and intake manifold at the time, but on the day it was too big of a job really, one must turn the engine over to make sure corresponding valves are closed when scraping away at the ports otherwise i end up with a cyclinder full of not very compressable lumps of carbon, it would also mean dropping the engine cradle down to get properly in - in which case you would be obliged do a lot of other 'small jobs'


The map sensor hose i spotted, are these prone to fill with carbon ? might be worth blowing out.

When i started my apprenticship in an Engine re-man shop in 1999 the di transit was the first engine i was put on to cut my teeth !! And i built them solid for 1 year, two or three a day in the end, Remember a block landing too me on a trolley from the boring bar section, and nice boxes of AE + 20 pistons and bearing shells and a nicely ground and polished crank, Was much excitment when a transit turbo came in to get done- the imagination could only wonder of the earthmoving extra power available in it lol, then came the coded antitheft injection pumps came in which meant we had to decode them or chisel them off to dyno the thing, and then i qualified and left for the bright lights of australia to make some dollars just as the first of the 16v transits were starting to come in for rebuilds so i never got to build one, funny how things come around eh.

When / if i get this van running right i plan to re-map it , this will mean taking the ECU out and posting it away as i did with the T5 as im not making a trip to UK in the transit, id be springing even more white hairs.


Should be 19bar compression adjusting the waste gate wont help as if there is over boost the fuel is cut by pm anyway, im sure people have experimented and not been able to increase boost succsesfully. only way is mapping i think

( Was meaning by that its pushing 0.7 Bar boost before adjusting wastegate- not 0.7 compression ) For a diesel these are quite low compression at 19 Bar so i dont think pushing more boost into them would be a problem, but yes a map will be needed to amplify any boost gains as id imagine the boundarys in the map sensor are very low and will otherwise put on a fault as you said.


So i do have some sort of problem on power according to your discription they should be at least ok.
it would be much slower than driving say a basic 1 litre car,

Shame it does not have an alloy body on the back, the steel one must be a weight issue, as are big leaf springs and a cast diff etc, it might be that after the power of the transporter im expecting too much from it, but im surprised see a modern vehicle run out of steam at 50mph, you would think they would be illegal to bring on the motorway if a manufacturer released something with performance that poor same as a scooter is banned !!

I admit i dont know the history of this van but looking at the tray in the back or drivers seat- general condition of it- it wouldnt be a difficult life, there were receipts from a weighbridge for timber shavings so thats what it was working at which should have been an easy life, there are many that have been worked senseless.

I think it was owned by Dublin county council before this and still wears its roof beacons- thats a good sign too as the boys would have spent more time drinking tea than working it !


This has 128 000 Miles on it, to me the engine note sounds correct for a transit, they are always crackle sounding, judging by smoke levels i would not think that the pump /injectors were an issue on this one although it would be easy and expensive to blame them and find nothing more than normal wear and tear,

i could prob get them both re-cond very right by posting them back to my old workplace - but i dont want to go pulling them off of something i need ,probably having an injector break in the head, having an angry french postman return a soggy cardbox box soaked in diesel with an injection pump inside ! (is that red sir - Gulp)

Its back to the case of if something is not broken dont fix it .

I had a SR nova many years back and it was always sort of dead in the same way, one day by messing about i discovered that the vaccum advance unit had a burst diaphram and wasnt pulling the little thing around to advance the timing, well when i fixed it the difference blew my mind,

feels like something similar on this bus- I dont want to go fast i just want a feeling of a bit of torque rather than feeling embarassed holding up a line of traffic,

The starting problem i reckon might be the Flywheel sensor as winterheating advised, wel try cleaning it when i find it.

The poor performance in the taller gears i would say is possibly an underfueling issue,
she runs at perfect temperture, less than half way on the gauge, im not sure as if in a petrol lack of ign advance or boost without the fuel would make it run hotter.

Next step is replace the flywheel, im going to Put another Dual mass on it as the manufacturer intended,
My reasons are that its only me that drives it and id say many that fail are down to - multiple drivers - drivers without mechanical sympathy - 2nd hand vehicle were it might have been already half dead.

Someones going to cut the legs from under me for saying that- 'Excuse me young man-he doesnt use a computer BUT my husband has never had an accident in 118 years and we have written to ford numerous times complaining about the ten flywheels that have collapsed overnight and come up through the floor while it was parked on the driveway outside'

but im going with another DMF all the same
If you ride the clutch or dump gears its going to fail, i have a dmf also in the VW and same as the transit forums many claim multiple failures and bellhousings splitered apart, many claim never to have had a problem and touch wood neithar has mine,
when its in gear i have no problem giving it the shoe- but theres a way of driving something hard and it doesnt always mean its abusive ... My mother had a starlet a few years ago 1.3 12 valve, she used often ask me if i would take it out and drive it beacause after i drove it in her words ' it just seemed feel so eager and wanted to go and what had i done' that was because i took it straight to the motorway when warm and took it out to the redline in every gear and then a nice long max speed pull in 5th to her terminal 110mph for 10 miles which replicates any good dyno session/ real life session on the autobahn which every car must be designed to accomodate, de coaked and freed out, im a firm believer in pushing on every engine at least once a month. even a low power band engine needs to know its alive now and again.

With the DMF If when your driving you can imagine all the little springs loading up etc your probably more inclined to know how to mind it so id rather try than fit a solid one which also seems to give its own share of problems to some.


Thats handy on the mondeo rev counter, theres a dead td mondeo in every third field here so it should be locatable,
The french have not got the changing the timing belt thing yet which kills most of the newer stuff, they honestly think that its a pot luck thing where some last the life of the car and some dont !! if it snaps well they will never buy another **ing ford as long as they live and neithar will their offspring for generations lol


So keep the ideas coming people and lets see can we get this truck to 70 mph.
Bon weekend a tous.
twincamsham
Transit Fan
Transit Fan
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Sauze Vaussais FR

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby twincamsham » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:41 pm

Thanks on the Cylinder info angel eye,
It will be as simple as taking some measurments i suppose, i had a quick look at the cylinder today and someone has welded up the return hole ( top port on the cylinder thats unused and thats dribbling a bit to. nice of them. must have done it when full and the oil boiled and forced a little passage up through the weld before it cooled

What il try and do is unscrew the throat gland- withdraw the rod and unscrew the piston off the bottom of it and slide the new seals on bottom to top, not a fan of cutting the rod if can be helped , i see that the pivot pins that the tray hinges on at the back of the chassis are also very well worn, one side more than the other, which explains the weird way that it tips, sort of lurchs one side first and flexs the whole thing, but granted damp sand has a lot of mass,
Christ i wish this thing had an alloy tipper body, they go on ebay for 3-400 now n again it might be worth a trip to Uk to get one. fuel savings and mig welder wire :/ alone would pay for it within the year as the existing one has plenty of 'ventilation'


@ Oldyellar something loosing power after a few hours running is a tricky one,

Diesels in general like heat, they like warm air for starting and colder air to run with, they like warm diesel but not too warm- hence the little radiator/ cooler on your fuel return line ?
Normally if there running right they will run all day at same output.

You would know yourself if it was heatseizing so rules that out, thats about the only 'mechaincal' explanation for a hot engine loosing power,

Sure its not a question of a diff bearing / brakes something else dragging down on it.

anyway, there are people on here enough qualified to help you out sure havent i enough of my own problems !?
twincamsham
Transit Fan
Transit Fan
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Sauze Vaussais FR

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby winterheating » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:08 pm

Looking at the engine the ckp is at 11 0clock, you may have the heat shield cover still over it, its easy to get to.

Rough idle at start up........, i would still do a quick fuel sample test just to rule the pump breaking down out.
But actually could just be the DMf causing hit...

The pickup teeth are on the inside solid side of Flywheel, but when the flywheel vibrating to much it can upset the signal.

Yes the fact its a council vehicle, could mean its spent a lot of time idling, which isnt good, judging by the excessive carbon build up it has, also if the wrong oils been used can cause more carbon sludging. Another thing is the Catalytic converter could well be blocked up pretty bad :idea:
If you smash the insides out it will make the turbo a bit more responsive and should hear it a bit nicer aswell.

Engine note could easily be mistaken for running right when the timing solonoid is faulty with restricted power and diesel knock and fault code shoulds be stored, it will sound more like a 2.5 di mk5.

About timing again, the crank can be out one tooth and cause lack of power.

Also throttle pedal could cause the serious lack of power you have.

The responsiveness of the throttle should be very good, you may think its ok when it could be a bit sluggish.
There should be no play whatsoever on the throttle pedal before revs increase.

Depending how an engine has been ran and used, recon injectors sometimes do totally revive an engines power.

It should really have plenty of pull, you shouldnt need to go over 3.5k, all the usefull torque is normaly low down, and really easy to glide along.

A fault code reader is really the next stage, it could tell you all you need to know, the F-supers on ebay work very well. They are around £50 i think.

Yes 100% spot on about the DMF, they are there for a reason, and are just as likely to fail as a clutch does prematurly, with bad drivers. Dropping the clutch too hard, resting foot on the pedal, to low revs and labouring too much.

Theres not many who realise there is nothing wrong with the correct fitted DMF.

What the DMF normally takes up after a solid conversion will just be transmitted to gearbox, and give an unpleasant harsh drive and vibration through cab.

Only recently i have changed a flywheel on a 125ps RWD mk6, i warned them of the dangers of fitting a solid but wouldnt pay the £150 extra, and just went for a £150 solid conversion.
2 months later, guess what i had to change for them, the gearbox :roll: One good thing is a 2nd one and old gearbox exchange only cost £100, plus £150 to fit it, but still have the solid flywheel fitted :roll:

I worked at a fast fit centre when i was younger, and forever getting old trevor revors in with newish cars with -30,000 miles and buggered clutches, all down to the driver.

My y reg jumbo 90ps has 242k on it now, original engine, runs perfect, i dont know if its original but it still has a DMF fitted, and like you i know how to drive with it correctly.
User avatar
winterheating
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 10676
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Co.Durham Darlington

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby twincamsham » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:50 am

Ok so you say there easy to glide along so means im definatly down on power it time to get active on the case,

Yesterday i had it running up on axle stands as i degreased and powerhosed all the engine and subframe so itl be a bit nicer crawling around in there and its about 3 kg ligter from the lost grime

As its idling the flywheel makes quite violent clatter noises, at the point of the bang the engine also misses a beat.trouble is im not sure if the miss is casuing the DMF to clatter, or the DMF is causing the miss in the first place, Its doubtful to be the DMF causing it but it needs changing big time before letting me down on route,
Glad you clarified that the sensor picks up from the fixed side of the flywheel, having not seen a DMF i didnt picture a fixed side i presumed it was all floating , When i had the starter off i was poking the flywheel ring gear each way with a screwdriver wondering where all the inchs of play was at :oops:

Anyone have experiece of the best DMF on ebay ? I was watching a new one on ebay that went at its reserve of 50 pound 2 weeks ago, but at the time i didnt know if my van was even a DMF :?
so missed oppurtuity. Id like to get a ford one but they are just really pricey so il take my chances, as said i dont really abuse the clutch.

Are people changing the rear crankshaft seal at the same time as the flywheel ? if so has anyone got a seal size handy as it would probably make sense for the sake of a couple of Euros on a yoke one is planning on keeping for the long term ..

Good point on the Cat, is that the round cylinder thing in the down pipe ? needs to be cut and then re welded up when its empty i take it. im not worried about emissions controls, she wont see another test in her new home.

What is basically happening is that when the engine is cold its 'hunting' to the point of cutting out - much less so if any when its warm. it would remind you of something thats taken in air overnight, but its doing it for too long to be an air bubble which would purge out fairly quickly, im talking about 5 good minutes of hunting where it will cut out if i let go of the throttle or the power steering hits its stop. nuisance when trying to reverse onto the street first thing in the morning, mix of two foot braking and handbrake action needed to keep it running and its bordering on dangerous, when underway in gear its fine.

Has the 'floating part' of the flywheel got enough mass that it could stall the engine at idle when it kicks back? id have thought a transit on idle would not be as sensitive as that.


so i suppose start with the simple things,

Battery voltage is now fine, starter also fine

Flywheel sensor will be the next thing to remove and clean - il do that today

Throttle pedal im fair confident is ok, it is very responsive as described

Il cut open the old fuel filter and look for metal debris, if pump is breaking up then it should also circulate in the fuel system

Dmf needs replacing eithar way, i suppose il hold off on bigger jobs til thats done - but may only be the cutting out problem, it wont fix the lack of power.

Need to get a codereader that works onto it, if anyone has a secondhand one they want to sell id be interested.

Is the timing on a 2.4 difficult to check, i probably need all those special pins for the crankshaft etc, i made one from an m10 bolt for timing a friends oul Td sierra drift pig recently and it worked the finest. in relation to injector pump timing - i think we used a pump lift gauge back in the day that screwed into the middle of the rear of the pump and measured plunger position in degrees. i have no idea on the fly by wire type

it does sound quite like a mk5, but the 2005 280/2.0 di front wheel drive that passes the house every morning sounds even more so like an old di than mine and his seems to be running fairly well.

Are the coolant temp sensors and the air temp sensors worth looking at as possible cause or do they only fine tune events slightly ... if i could find out what resitance they operate in i could bridge them with a variable resistor as a test.

At the engine shop i worked at when we got new injectors from delphi there used to be a lick of paint on the injector sets and it dictated the power, i think there was even a set with an orange lick that gave 130 hp for marine use only according to the lad that did the pumps and nozzles,

Are there bigger nozzles available for the 2.4 , theres probably heaps of room for tuning with such low output numbers and the duratorq seems an ok engine base to start with. or is everything just done by remapping these days.
twincamsham
Transit Fan
Transit Fan
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Sauze Vaussais FR

Re: Mk6 2.4 Tddi slow as christmas and now starting probs !!

Postby winterheating » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:21 am

ford transit 2.4 dual mass flywheel 2000-04 luk oem

£ 199.99 - SOLD (fixed price)
Ended Wed Apr 11th  1:01pm BST
Seller: superspares
the 125ps 115ps 2.4 and 100ps 2.0 are all the same and biggest injectors for the tddi mk6.

not sure wether the tddi 115ps mk3 mondeo injectors would be the same also :?:
User avatar
winterheating
Transit Extremist
Transit Extremist
 
Posts: 10676
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 pm
Location: Co.Durham Darlington

Next

Return to Technical Problems & Questions



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]