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Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

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Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby mntranny » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:52 am

I have driven in the last 36 hours 360 miles in my 1973 Transit V4 1.7 Cologne 130 ex German Fire Engine.
This is the first great adventure in my fire truck after 2 years of ownership, mostly driving no more than 14 miles in one time.

I left my wife at home, as I knew this would be an adventure and did not want a scary wife when something goes wrong. I stayed at 50 MPH using backroads across Minnesota.

I stopped every 2 hours to check the oil and coolant levels, to sure make everything was good.

At the 361st mile, just 40 miles from home, all of the sudden, I head a pop, the oil pressure warning light came on, and so I pulled over immediately.

I checked the oil and the oil level was good, I checked the coolant and had to put 2 pints of coolant in after letting it cool down. I had been keeping an eye on the temperature gauge for the whole journey, but cannot remember looking in the minutes up to oil warning light coming on.

I started it again, and oil pressure light was still on, it was running 3 out 4 cylinders, moved the vehicle to a more safer position on the road about 300 yards.
There is no knocking or worrying sounds coming from the engine.

Let it cool down again, checked the coolant and another 2 pints of coolant.

I checked radiator, coolant hoses, oil etc and it looks like coolant had been coming out of the overflow.

I realized no point moving any further and called a tow truck for the last 40 miles home, so not to cause any more damage.

I am hoping it could be a head gasket failure, radiator cap failure, but suspect is could be a lot worse....

Any recommendations on how to determine what is wrong or what common problems to look for?

Any thoughts or recommendation based on experience would be appreciated.
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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby Neil » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:07 am

its a 1973 v4 could be all those problems due to age if its never had engine work before
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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby dumper » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:43 am

The inlet manifold gasket can blow and lose water have a look at that first before you take heads off I had problems with a v4 of my own overheating and blowing out water I had the heads checked and overhauled but still the same I put it down to block cracked or warped and replace the engine.
But the company I worked for had a fleet of v4 engined transits and they wear so much problems that they replaced them with bmc vans it was not till the transits came with Diesel engines that they started buying them again
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Past camper vans
1974 mk1 v4 with 2.0 pinto fitted
1986 mk3 2.5 di swb
1990 190 lwb 2.5 di
1998 100 lwb 2.5 di
2006 350 jumbo 135 tdci
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Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby bulls in transit » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:02 am

Oil pump on a colonge is driven by the balance shaft, balance shaft and gears and bearings are prone to failing if the fan belt is run too tight ( front cover and sump off to check).
Running on 3 could be inlet/head gaskets as stated, or valve seats, original seats do not fair well with lead free even when run with additives( compression test required).
Water level in mine runs just below baffle visible when you take cap off, any more and it just comes out of overflow when running.
Stick to mineral oil 10/30, any thicker (ie 20/50) and unless it’s 30 degrees plus you will encounter problems, no synthetic oil, colognes do not like it.
Covered 17kKm in mine and rising.


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Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby bulls in transit » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:14 pm

Just re read manual thanks to a very genuine pointer, I got oil flow and oil drive confused, the oil pump is driven by shaft from base of distributor, 1st things to look at.(no need for timing gear cover off)
Oil flow to timing gear etc is via journal in balance shaft.
Dizzy driven by cog on cam,held in place by 13mm clamp base of distributor on block.
Oil pumps can be bought standard or uprated from motomobil Gmbh online,same as driveshaft.
Distributor (if fomoco) is the same as in later ‘pinto’ 2ltrs (C7KH-c), I know rotor,cap fit,as an’accuspark ‘ electric ignition kit does ( no points,fit forget) as it’s whats mine running with, eBay UK, found accuspark stuff fits as good as NOS (don’t use ‘ intermotor’ brand unless you like doing jobs repeatedly)
Fits your symptoms a lot more logically(missing,oil light,no untoward noises)


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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby mntranny » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:18 pm

Thank you all the feedback, I will your recommendations and let you know how I get on.
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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby mntranny » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:57 pm

Update[b][u][/u][/b]

For this afternoon, I went out and checked the engine over and found the clamp holding the hose output of the water pump was slightly lose, so I replaced the hose and clamp as a precaution.

Next I turned the engine over and saw something I have never seen before.

The engine was turning over but the timing pulley and therefore the waterpump/alternator were not turning.

As the engine is turning over and will run, I am suspecting that there may be a some gearing between the Crankshaft and the timing that has failed.

Any recommendations of what to do next?

Many thanks for the feedback so far.
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Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby bulls in transit » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:07 pm

Image
Image

Teeth on timing gears are known to snap (plastic teeth)can get metal ones.
Your now dealing with something I haven’t had the pleasure of yet, so I’m not 100% it’s gears, could be anything attached to gears
Would of said try taking fan belt off, but looking at pics gears should all turn with or without belt(easier ‘pop’,seized alternator,water pump)
Rad out, front panel off, then I’d start by taking front cover off to expose gears and go from there personally, but I haven’t got a hoist to hand, don’t know if that’s an easier option.
Hope it goes well for you.



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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby dumper » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:45 pm

I know this is not the problem of this engine but for anyone haveing the crank re ground or re shelling it we had a problem the right size shells wear ordered and fitted but when engine was started it had no oil pressure oil pump was ok it turned out that depending on how the block was machined the bearing shells have different thickness of backing so you can have the right size of shells for the crank pins but not for the block this mistake was made by a machine shop that did all our engine machining work at the time this was the first time they had seen this problem
MK 8 L4 H3 Motorsport campervan
Past camper vans
1974 mk1 v4 with 2.0 pinto fitted
1986 mk3 2.5 di swb
1990 190 lwb 2.5 di
1998 100 lwb 2.5 di
2006 350 jumbo 135 tdci
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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby Chug » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:37 pm

mntranny wrote:Update[b][u][/u][/b]

For this afternoon, I went out and checked the engine over and found the clamp holding the hose output of the water pump was slightly lose, so I replaced the hose and clamp as a precaution.

Next I turned the engine over and saw something I have never seen before.

The engine was turning over but the timing pulley and therefore the waterpump/alternator were not turning.

As the engine is turning over and will run, I am suspecting that there may be a some gearing between the Crankshaft and the timing that has failed.

Any recommendations of what to do next?

Many thanks for the feedback so far.


When you say timing pulley I assume you mean crankshaft pulley? as this is what turns the water pump and alternator via the fan belt

If the crankshaft pulley is not turning when the engine is running either the woodruff key on the crankshaft has broken, or the groove in the crankshaft pulley that goes over the woodruff key is broken, either of these would explain the pop you heard, as for the oil light still on and only running on 3, who knows depending how hot it got, sort the pulley problem and get the cooling/charging going again and then you can get a better idea of what the cause of those might be. good luck :D
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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby DougT » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:42 pm

The Cologne V4 is odd in that the fan belt pulley/timing pulley is attached to the balance shaft not the crank shaft. Both the balance shaft and the camshaft are driven by gears underneath the front cover.

So the bit that has been puzzling me is the loss of oil pressure. If the timing pulley is not turning then it is likely as Bulls says, that the plastic teeth on the gear have failed. This would stop the water pump and the alternator. But if the engine continued to start then the gear that drives the camshaft is OK as the camshaft is still turning and is correctly timed as the camshaft also drives the distributor. But the distributor also drives the oil pump so if the distributor is working, then the oil pump should be working unless there has been a second simultaneous failure.

But what strikes me is that if the alternator stopped working then the alternator light should have come on. So if there was low oil pressure as well that would be 2 lights coming on. I can't remember if it is possible to mix up the bulb holders inside the speedo, but perhaps the alternator and oil pressure warning light holders have been switched or connected the wrong way round, so when the alternator stopped, then it actually showed up as no oil pressure ?

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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby Chug » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:47 am

oh yeah its the cologne engine, cheers for the clarification Doug, so if balance shaft has lost teeth on its gear and as bulls says oil for timing gears goes through its journal maybe that was the cause of loss of oil pressure?

I also wondered about the oil light and charging light scenario, as you said if the pulley is not turning it should be two lights, maybe mntranny can shed some light?
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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby bulls in transit » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:24 am

Remember a post from Ralph about his firevan original engine failing, from memory when disassembled it was a snapped balance shaft, could this scenario be similar, as in if the balance shaft failed in failing dislodge the drive shaft from distributor to pump bringing oil light up?



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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby DougT » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:56 am

I hope that is not the case for the sake of the OP ! I would expect nasty noises coming from somewhere if the balance shaft has got out of line to that degree.

But as you said before, pulling off that front cover is the first step.

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Re: Low Oil Pressure Cologne V4 1.7 Mk1

Postby mntranny » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:54 am

Thanks for the feedback. Everything is really helping.

I also need to come clean on one point after reading Doug T's comments . It was not the oil pressure light coming on, as initially indicated after the popping sound.

I now know it is the ignition light, I think the trauma of the breakdown, the tow home and initial feeling oh my god I blown the engine up, made me assume incorrectly it was the oil pressure warning light. I should have known better that red is ignition and apologize for the confusion.

I cannot say thank you enough for all the feedback, I have gone from thinking I had a destroyed engine to hoping it could be the plastic gear.

The next stage will be to take the front cover, remove the radiator and front cover of the engine and see what I see.

I see Motomobil offer metal replacement gears as well as plastic one, should if I find a gear problem, just replace all three gears with metal ones, or will that put somewhere else on the engine?
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