Bosch HBA Top - Torque Sleeve/Piston

[IgorVigor]

I thought I'd post something up that I've recently learnt....


A friend of mine has a transit Di as well (which I knew), and wanted a little more power from it.
he made sure the torque sleeve and piston were in good condition, and had the torque preload screw on the top of the pump adjusted.

his transit made a little smoke when accelerating and was much better......


BUT, he then decided to have some fun, and he removed the torque piston from the pump (I dont know if he left the sleeve in place)....
the transit then smoked a fair bit (as to be expected ....it was getting the maximum fuel allowed by the HBA top permanently), but it also MUCH more powerful.....

as an idea of the smoke, it permanently produces smoke from the exhaust
ticking over was a smoke haze, and then under acceleration it produced a plume of black smoke
I've tried to find a video of the smoke, but the closestI could find as an idea of the smoke under acceleration is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sof-UhI_ZMg

his obviously only made that sort of smoke when accelerating full throttle from low RPM, so the engine was loaded...

now he never had an EGT gauge, so no idea how high the EGT's were, but his transit survived for over 2 years like that.....
he did around 30,000 miles with it smoking like that, and the engine is still going strong I believe in another transit! (his died to terminal rust)

his engine was a standard banana engine (but single downpipe model), non turbo (and it still had the Di head/valves etc)
it was a 100% original 2.5 Di engine....

standard exhaust, intake, etc....






I've been wondering what the EGT's must have been with the engine smoking that heavily!

Has anyone else tried removing the torque piston (and possibly sleeve)?

perhaps the transit Di is happiest smoking that much!



to give an idea, he did some testing before and after the removal.....

before, it would do 0-60mph (on the clocks) in around 25 seconds.
after removal, it would do it in 18 seconds....

he managed to get the transit to 100mph on the clocks with the torque piston removed.






he now has a mapped Mk6 and he isnt happy with it, as its slower than his Mk5!



so perhaps he found the ultimate performance mod?



any thoughts?

[robbie.cee]

i would have thought that running as rich as that would actually LOWER exhaust gas temp, usually running LEAN ie more air than fuel causes extra heat to be developed. might be wrong tho.


did his acceleration and top speed improve much after such a mod?

thinking yankee tractor racing with that much black smoke,

go youtube that and have a grin!!

25 ton tractors with 6 x 7 litre engines on doing 0-60 faster than your car

[IgorVigor]

on a petrol, running lean (more air than optimum) causes temperatures to rise.
which is why most petrols run a smidgen rich (it also offers the most power)

diesels are the reverse....

running lots of air compared to fuel keeps temperatures down.

so the more black smoke, the higher the EGT's will get.....



but I wondered the same thing as you......
basically it was over fuelling so much that it started to reduce EGT's again....



I have to admit, my transit is setup so it makes a slight haze from the exhaust during acceleration (and leaves an initial cloud), as thats what I've always found to be best.....


I might have to remove the piston and see how runs....

I already posted the performance increase he measured

but I'll forgive you




I've seen plenty of tractor pulling videos, and I have to admit....I do like a smoke plume


No smoke, no poke

[robbie.cee]

screw pictures can we have vids with sound please!!!!!!

can get egt probe and gauge off fleabay nice electro luminescent one! cheap ish!

smoke on!


even a standard one smokes a tad under full throttle , just dont floor it apassed police or vosa eh

[IgorVigor]

yes, and I have the ideal place for an EGT probe.....where the EGR used to be (well the link pipe is still there for the moment....but it could be removed )


does anyone have an official safe EGT temperature for the transit Di?

I'd have thought it was around the 650*c mark....



however, there are a few transits on youtube that make some SERIOUS smoke, and still run nicely without any issues.....

I think an EGT gauge would be nice
(more of an excuse to have a pod :p)

[IgorVigor]

a slight update....

I was speaking to the torque piston remover earlier :p


it seems he didnt know what bits were called what


what he actually removed was the pin thats moved by the torque piston....
so the torque sleeve didnt have any effect on the fuelling any more.

the internal lever (the one the pin holds shut) obviously stayed on the max fuel setting permanently, so it smoked more across the range (but especially at the lower RPM)....





I might go and remove the pin, and what its like for smoke and performance.....



one thing I do want to ask though, is how easy is it to get the pin back in if its been removed?

he couldn't get the pin back in without removing the entire pump top....but he didnt know the torque sleeve was meant to come out

[robbie.cee]

one of those "easy 5 min jobs" that could turn into a reet nightmare! beware! let yer m8 kill his first lol .£600 for new pump!

[IgorVigor]

taking injection pumps apart isnt as bad as it sounds to be honest!

its only because he is a little incompetent and didnt realise the torque sleeve came out as well
I cant see it will be hard to replace the pin with that out (I've been reading about torque sleeve problems, and it seems a lot of people take the pin out to clean it ....and some have found the pin rattling around in the bottom of the torque top anyway :p)


he was trying to get the pin back in through the torque sleeve with standard pliers.....


I have a set of long handled, long nosed ones that will work nicely if needed :p

[dieselhead123]

yes, and I have the ideal place for an EGT probe.....where the EGR used to be (well the link pipe is still there for the moment....but it could be removed )
does anyone have an official safe EGT temperature for the transit Di?
I'd have thought it was around the 650*c mark....

I fitted the EGT probe in the EGR blanking plate in the exhaust manifold


Mine is turbo and intercooled, standard turbo at the moment, still got the 85ps injectors.
Even driving hard up a long incline, the EGT never gets above 400c and as soon as the engine returns to idle then the gauge drops to nothing but I am 'under-fuelling'.

The turbo is supposed to be safe for up to about 750c but I have a large water cooled turbo to be fitted soon, the water cooling should help to reduce the EGT and prolong turbo life.

An EGT gauge as you have stated, is a very useful tuning aid for a diesel engine.

TIM

[IgorVigor]

Yes, I was thinking the EGR blanking plate is a good place for an EGT probe

is your engine a Di or an actual turbo engine?


and how 'under fuelled' is your transit?
does it ever produce black smoke?



My Di produces a light haze from the exhaust when accelerating, but only above 2/3 throttle (not dependant on load)
anything below 2/3 throttle and it doesn't produce any smoke....and its obviously a little flat....

I'm going to take the torque piston and sleeve out and check they are clean and move freely, but if it doesnt help the performance, I think I'll remove the pin and see if it runs better (and see how much smoke it produces)



I know the Di engine has a cast iron block and head, but what are the pistons made of?

as for the EGT's, if the turbo is supposedly safe to 750*c, the engine will probably take a little more than that safely (800~900*c possibly more)



I will get an EGT gauge when I can, just got to decide on which one (the cheaper the better really)....

[dieselhead123]

The engine in mine is a genuine turbo one, 85ps and has an 'over engine' intercooler from a Mitsubishi L200 fitted below the bonnet.
The engine is VERY under fueled, mostly at full boost as the non turbo Bosch pump that is fitted to it has no Manifold Pressure Compensator.
The plan is to complete the 'intake' modifications, larger turbo and front mount intercooler, then start further pump alterations.
The 'power' screw has been wound in as far as the pump internals will allow and there is NEVER any black smoke!
The first fuel modification will be the fitting of a Manifold Pressure Compensator, larger injectors and then a 12mm fuel head.
Having driven my turbo model I would recommend a retro-fit turbo to any of you with non turbo di's as a worthwhile performance upgrade.
TIM

[IgorVigor]

The engine in mine is a genuine turbo one, 85ps and has an 'over engine' intercooler from a Mitsubishi L200 fitted below the bonnet.
The engine is VERY under fueled, mostly at full boost as the non turbo Bosch pump that is fitted to it has no Manifold Pressure Compensator.
The plan is to complete the 'intake' modifications, larger turbo and front mount intercooler, then start further pump alterations.
The 'power' screw has been wound in as far as the pump internals will allow and there is NEVER any black smoke!
The first fuel modification will be the fitting of a Manifold Pressure Compensator, larger injectors and then a 12mm fuel head.
Having driven my turbo model I would recommend a retro-fit turbo to any of you with non turbo di's as a worthwhile performance upgrade.
TIM

well, I've just taken the torque sleeve and piston out of my pump.
the piston is sticking at times in the sleeve.

I looked in the shed for some emery paper...but I cant seem to find it....

so I decided to remove the pin from the pump.....(I refitted the torque sleeve and plunger back into the pump)

it does produce a bit more smoke than before, but it depends greatly on how loaded the engine is and the throttle position.

if your at low rpm in a high gear, and you plant your foot to full throttle, it produces a plume of smoke but not the worst I've seen.
but the thing I noticed first, is how much more lively the engine is!


it has considerably more torque at the bottom end, and a little more power at the top end.



I've kept the pin (obviously :p), so if it needs it for the MOT, I'll refit it for the couple of hours.....
but the pin will be staying out for the rest of the time!

I obviously cant measure EGT's, but its running much smoother, and it starts VERY easily....




So, if your still looking for a little more power and torque (especially low down), and you dont mind 10 minutes of tinkering........perhaps removing the pin is a good option....

if you dont like it, or think it makes too much smoke, its not hard to refit it.




TIM, on your turbo engine, I think it might be worth you removing the pin as well....
it obviously allows the pump to run the maximum fuel it can supply (which is more than the torque sleeve will allow)

it might just be enough extra fuel for the turbo engine......

[robbie.cee]

bloody good thread this well done guys theres gonna be a new wave of old vans flying past people soon!

[IgorVigor]

bloody good thread this well done guys theres gonna be a new wave of old vans flying past people soon!

haha...not sure about flying past other people.....its not that powerful



I have a question for everyone though...regarding EGTs....

I had a land rover Tdi which smoked a little more than my transit does.
its EGT's were about on the safe limit (650*c ~ 700*c) for the LR Tdi engine (its lower due to the alloy heads I believe)


the LR Tdi (for those that don't know), is a long stroke engine, with an alloy head, and a T25 turbocharger.
it runs 19:1 compression as well.

being a non crossflow engine, its inherently not as efficient at high RPM as the transit Di, and that was running 1 bar of boost and tweaked fuelling (LDA and max fuel screw adjustment)...


now, the n/a Di transit engine, IS a crossflow engine which should (in theory) keep cylinder temps and thus the EGT lower than a non-crossflow engine.
also, the Di hasn't got a turbine in the exhaust which would create back pressure (which pushes EGT's higher)

so, if a more efficient design of engine, running as a N/A produces a little less smoke than the LR Tdi did.....do you think the EGT's would be lower?
(I know a few other factors come into the equation, but surely it must naturally keep the EGT's lower?)

both engines are Di, and run the Bosch VE pump with an 11mm head.



and the other thing to consider, is the LR Tdi engine is forcing air into the cylinder under pressure (1 bar above atmospheric), so the cylinder temps will naturally be higher due to already compressed air being compressed a further 19:1....

my Transit Di engine has to suck air in, so its compressing atmospheric air 19:1...
which means less fuel is being injected into the cylinder to produce the same smoke quantity (its air fuel ratio will be similar, but it has less energy)


which, unless I am mistaken, will mean the EGT's will be lower on the Transit Di.....



does anyone agree with what I've said?
or care to comment?

[dieselhead123]

As you have said, EGT's will be higher on a non-crossflow engine due to the proximity of inlet/exhaust ports, so the di should run a bit lower.
I doubt that it would be possible to over fuel a non turbo di to such an extent as to raise EGT's into the 'unsafe' zone given the minimal EGT that I can obtain from my van, although I assume that the intercooler would have some (if only minimal), effect on reducing EGT's as the intake charge would be cooler thus reducing head temperatures.
The other thing to bear in mind as regards the 'safe limit' is that as soon as the throttle is closed then EGT's drop.
I remember a stunt on Top Gear where they towed a caravan as fast as they could with an Evo, continual full boost, they blew the turbo as a result of excessive and sustained high EGT's, apparently, no other direct damage. A water cooled turbo would have lasted a lot longer, keeping EGT's lower for longer.
Most large commercial vehicles are fitted with water cooled turbos to reduce EGT's. Many of these vehicles would operate at maximum boost for long periods of time, pulling a heavy load up a long incline for example.
I fitted my EGT gauge as a tuning aid and was surprised how low the EGT's were!
My opinion would be that a non turbo di is pretty safe as regards excessive EGT's regardless of fueling modifications.
TIM