lift pump vs no lift pump?

[knighty1981]

mate has a truck with a strongly suspected dead injection pump

he's pulled the pump out, but has a selection of spare pumps...

his old one is 0 460 414 051

spares he has are 0 460 414 153 and 0 460 414 119

also 0 460 414 113 but this has a 3 bolt flange on the front instead of 4 bolt

I've said all those pumps are interchangeable, all 414 pumps (that's what I read here) - so go with either of the 4 bolt flange pumps which match his old one



but... his engine doesn't have a lift pump... I've searched here and googled but can't find much info... and the injection pumps different with/without a lift pump?

we had a van without a lift pump when I was a kid... but I was a kid, can;t remember much about it now


will his replacement pumps be ok without a lift pump?

[bambi mk 1]

Tear away Tear away she said me mothers a dressmaker .Go for it .

[Chug]

Thanks for the intro Alan, I'm sure I joined before but I searched and the only Chug I could find was female so definitely not me!

Anyway long time transit runner and had many over the years, I've got my Bosch VE Injection Pump from my tipper on the bench after trying to sort it on the truck to no avail, I've got 3 other VE pumps here and it looks like I can rob parts from them as they seem interchangeable, is this correct?

0 460 414 051 Current pump removed from my tipper year unknown Possibly 99
0 460 414 113 unknown van
0 460 414 119 from N reg tipper
0 460 414 153 from an R reg van


I found this serial number ID guide and it looks like they should have 11mm plungers?

0= Denotes complete product
460= Product class, Distributor pump
4= Identifier for VE Injection pump
1= Plunger Diameter: 8=8mm,9=9mm,0=10mm,1=11mm,2=12mm,3=13mm & 4=14mm
4= Number of Cylinders
001= Application

Also found a guide that says
for the 051 pump VE4/11F2000R288 Ford 4AB, 4CA
for the 113 pump VE4/11F2000R567-1 Ford 4FB, 4FD Kat, 4FA Kat
for the 119 pump VE4/11F2000R624 Ford 4FA Kat, 4FC Kat, 4HB
for the 153 pump VE4/11F2000R624-7 Ford 4FD Kat, 4FB, 4FC Kat

which ties in with this guide I found
VE = VE type pump (VP is still a VE pump)
4 = number of cylinders
/11 = 11mm plunger
E = electronic governor (F=mechanical)
xxxx number = governor controlled RPM (I assume this is pump rpm not engine rpm)
R = clockwise rotation (L = counter clockwise)
xxx-x number = production number

so as I understand it that equates to my pumps being
11mm plunger
mechanical
2000rpm
clockwise rotation

I thought I would just check the timing with a dial gauge today and see if they all lined up with locking pin holes and I only checked one pump timing which wasn't bad, but then found a problem with two of them they will only turn about three quarters of a turn, they wont do a full rotation like the other two, and I'm sure one of em I had previously turned ok, but I may have got confused.

I guess I'll find out when I start stripping them down but just wondered if I have all my research correct and will a VE pump seals/rebuild kit be the same for all of these pumps?

Cheers Chug

[vanfox]

My two penn'orth? Save a lot of b*ll ache, find and fit a lift pump then all bases are covered. Whilst dabbling with veg oil and running from a coke bottle under the bonnet I found the lift pump can move a litre of fuel back to the tank in rag time. At least with a lift pump and an inline clear filter you can see you have fuel flowing thru' the system. All mine, (7) have had lift pumps.

[knighty1981]

there's no-where on the engine for the lift pump to fit

[Keef]

The very early Mk3's with the lucas CAV pump had no lift pump and no hole for it but all Bosch pumped DI's had lift pumps from factory.

The Bosch pump will run happily without a lift pump but priming the system is much more difficult.

[Chug]

As Alan posted it hasn't got a hole in the block where the fuel pump usually fits, so probably an early engine then?
I'll see if I Can find an engine number when I get time.

I'm just trying to source a pump rebuild kit for a mehanical VE pump, has anyone got a reasonable priced supplier bookmarked please?

Then I'm gonna start stripping the pumps to get to know the insides and select all the best bits to make a good pump.

[vanfox]

If you don't got the aperture for the mechanical lift pump you can use an electric pump. When mine threw a wobbly after using bad veg I used an S.U from a Jag. Worked OK and there was no probs with bleeding and again, you know there is fuel in the system 'cos you can hear the pump ticking and see it if you have an clear in line filter.

[V184]

The very early Mk3's with the lucas CAV pump had no lift pump and no hole for it but all Bosch pumped DI's had lift pumps from factory.

The Bosch pump will run happily without a lift pump but priming the system is much more difficult.

the early CAV models had a lift pump incorporated in the filter housing, if you prefill the Bosch pump it will draw the fuel up from the tank ok

[bambi mk 1]

The very early Mk3's with the lucas CAV pump had no lift pump and no hole for it but all Bosch pumped DI's had lift pumps from factory.

The Bosch pump will run happily without a lift pump but priming the system is much more difficult.

What factory Lift pumps were fitted from 1988 on when the smaller rocker cover bolts and pencil injectors were fitted .I have seen many bosch equipped ones with no lift pump plus most late mk 2 di's had a bosch pump and no lift pump

[Keef]

The very early Mk3's with the lucas CAV pump had no lift pump and no hole for it but all Bosch pumped DI's had lift pumps from factory.

The Bosch pump will run happily without a lift pump but priming the system is much more difficult.

What factory Lift pumps were fitted from 1988 on when the smaller rocker cover bolts and pencil injectors were fitted .I have seen many bosch equipped ones with no lift pump plus most late mk 2 di's had a bosch pump and no lift pump

I stand corrected, I meant all DI's after the Lucas pumped Mk3 (ie 1988 on) had Bosch pump with lift pump and I too have seen many Bosch with no lift pump but assumed those to be early short engines fitted into later vans?

[Chug]

I have the pump apart on the bench now!

I cannot see any obvious problem, its all clean inside and I can see no obvious signs of wear or scoring, so not sure why it wasn't working.

only problem is I lost the spring clip that covers the pin to the timing
advance, but that is no big deal as I will have them on the other pumps.

I found a little tiny piece of pin, 1/4 inch long and slightly smaller
diameter than the timing advance locking pin that is under the spring clip I lost, I
don't know where it came from, it may have been on the bench previously and
not even come from the pump.

EDIT: I noticed that the ring which has four slots and four little sliding pieces of obling that sits inside the eccentric ring for the vane pump were really tight in their grooves and would hardly move, I gave them a good clean and now they slide in and out really easily, so I'm thinking this might have been the problem?

[F111ORY]

I believe the lift pump was introduced for the Epic. After its introduction all engines got a lift pump. The bosch pump will draw fuel from the tank once bled up.

[bambi mk 1]

I believe the lift pump was introduced for the Epic. After its introduction all engines got a lift pump. The bosch pump will draw fuel from the tank once bled up.

Hi Rick,Fords reason for fitting a lift pump as told to me by an engineer visiting a dealership was the the lack of constant fuel pressure was causing the advance spring to wear and break on Cav equipped engines causing pistons to crack .It did not cure the problem so hence Bosch fitment on later models.If you listen to a Cav running low on diesel the advance sounds like a skeleton in a biscuit tin .