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Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

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Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby fuzzedup » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:25 am

Hi all, can anybody help me by giving a fool-proof way of bleeding my brakes. I've just replaced both master cylinder, servo, front calipers, both rear cylinders and fitted new rear shoes. I've greased the the load valve and its moves freely and also I've traced the brake lines and is a front & rear setup not diagonal. I have attempted to bleed the brakes and they start to feel hard but when I start the engine and the servo kicks in the go soft and to the floor again. I've read through a few articles and they all seek to contradict each other. any help would be greatly appropriated as this is the last job on my quest to get the magic MOT certificate and a nagging wife off my back.

Cheers

Paul
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby dumper » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:46 am

To bleed you brakes start at n/s/r then o/s/r then n/s/f and last o/s/f I have seen on some vehicle maybe not a transit that had one on the load valve but as you have changed pads and rear shoes they will need beding in and the rear brakes may need adjusting manually if the drum as a lip on it grind it off and adjust brakes so they are just dragging and make sure all air is out of the system I use one of the cheap power blenders that you plug on to your spare tyre
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby gotgcoalman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:28 pm

as above order :)

I usually crack the 1'st nipple attach a length of silicone pipe to it and place the other end in a jar or similar.
Check the fluid is topped up and go and have a cuppa,the fluid will work it's way to the rear cylinder without any pumping.
tighten the nipple and move on to the next 1.
When all 4 have been done this way go to the 1'st one and bleed normally (pumping) I never fully depress the pedal even on a new master cylinder.
Most of the air will have come out during the first process.
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby fuzzedup » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:59 pm

cheers all for the tips. I've been doing some more diggin and found that maybe the rear brake shoes need adjusting and this too could cause the problem. To be honest i just fitted them and didnt know how to adjust. they had a funny mechanism and I dont know how to do it. I've attached a pic so if anyone can advise that be great.

Cheers
paul
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby gotgcoalman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:41 pm

classic example of the "self adjuster" not self adjusting.

remove the "E" clips off the 2 pins the adjuster mechinism pivots on.
remove the ratchet adjuster bits.
clean the corossion off the shoes,especially under the adjuster.
check and clean the side of the adjuster that sits on the newly cleaned shoes.
apply a thin smear of lube to the back of the adjuster and on the metal of the shoes where the adjuster is going to pivot.
Re fit in reverse.

Now you should be able to pull the top part out and the freely moving ratchet should stop it being pushed back in.
Pull the bottom part down and the top will free to move back.
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby vanfox » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:56 pm

Time to get the naggin' wife into the drivers' seat to press the brake pedal as instructed. Worked for me for 30 yrs, much simpler than the tube in a jam jar, you can feel the fluid/air expelled with a gloved finger over the nipple. Keep an eye on the fluid level.
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby cherniy_chack » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:07 pm

gotgcoalman wrote:classic example of the "self adjuster" not self adjusting.

Golden words and told in time! :D
After cleaning, lubrication and assembly of the triboco-sector self-adjustment mechanism, it is necessary to install the shoes and springs in place.
Lower the handbrake lever.
Put the brake drum on the shoes.
If the drum easily gets in place, but you need to remove it.
The two iron rods spread the top of the shoes from the rear axle.
Again try to put the brake drum on the shoes.
If the drum is not put on shoes, then you need to "pull together" the shoes.
To do this, insert the blade of the flat screwdriver between the tooth sectors of the "self-adjusting mechanism" and turn the screwdriver in either direction.
The sectors will lose contact and the upper coupling spring will pull the shoes together.
It may take several attempts to establish the correct clearance between the drum and shoes.
Before installing the brake drum from its working surface, the shoulder must be removed.
With the proper clearance, the drums rotate easily and the handbrake lever rises to three to five clicks.
I hope my words are clear.
I wish you success.
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby gotgcoalman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:34 pm

makes sense to me c_c :D

If you're stuck fuzzedup I'll strip my knackered axle and take pics+explain what we mean.

I want the slaves/shoes/hubs before the rest goes for scrap anyway.
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby fuzzedup » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:39 pm

Thanks all for the speedy responses. I've just stripped the rear drum and refitted as directed. I pumped up the brakes and I heard the adjuster clicking into place. As the brakes (I belive) are full of are I pumped the pedal until hard then wedged a pole onto the brake and wedged it into the seat, then tested the hub and it was locked nice and tight. Now I just need to properly bled the brakes. Any more tips on bleeding the brakes would be fab. Just another query, the brakes are setup front to back, so which order should I do them ?? Sorry for all the questions but this van (campervan) is starting to test me and the misses is it nagging to get it road worthy for a trip away
Thanks
Paul
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby bambi mk 1 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:28 pm

fuzzedup wrote:cheers all for the tips. I've been doing some more diggin and found that maybe the rear brake shoes need adjusting and this too could cause the problem. To be honest i just fitted them and didnt know how to adjust. they had a funny mechanism and I dont know how to do it. I've attached a pic so if anyone can advise that be great.

Cheers
paul

THE LINING IS COMMING OFF THE SHOE :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Get a new set of shoes rapid or there will be weeping and knashing of teeth and a lot more besides .
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby fuzzedup » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:54 pm

bambi mk 1 wrote:
fuzzedup wrote:cheers all for the tips. I've been doing some more diggin and found that maybe the rear brake shoes need adjusting and this too could cause the problem. To be honest i just fitted them and didnt know how to adjust. they had a funny mechanism and I dont know how to do it. I've attached a pic so if anyone can advise that be great.

Cheers
paul

THE LINING IS COMMING OFF THE SHOE :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Get a new set of shoes rapid or there will be weeping and knashing of teeth and a lot more besides .

Don't panic, these were the old shoes. I was a photo I had taken whislt removing the old shoes. But cheers for looking out for me :)
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby cherniy_chack » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:00 am

fuzzedup wrote:Just another query, the brakes are setup front to back, so which order should I do them ??

First you let out air on a back axis, then on forward.
There is no difference, you start on the left or start from the right.
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Re: Mk5 non ABS brake bleeding help

Postby fuzzedup » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:01 pm

Well I grabbed a pal to help with the brake bleeding. It turned out to be a bad day. I started at the back and got my friend to pump up hard. Some air came out, but they wouldn't stay hard. Moved onto the remaining brakes and the same. No air but the pedal never stayed hard and had lots of travel. With the engine off they did pump up hard but when the engine was on the servo kicked in and they went soft as hell. I did change the master cylinder a while ago and was thinking maybe the seals have been damaged due to trying to bleed the brakes when I had dodgy rear cylinders and then my mate pushing the pedal all the way to the floor, even though I made a point not too !! Does this sound right or could it be the resevour is not held on tight enough and losing pressure here ?? I'm happy to get a new master but just want to know if there's anything I could try before ordering a new one. Sorry to keep on
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