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Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (ROG)

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Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos

Postby (ROG) » Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:40 am

GROSS & TRAIN WEIGHTS

Having spoken to one of the top people in VOSA, I can now give the CORRECT information for train weights: -
It is the ACTUAL weights of the total combination that determine the train weight and not the plated weights.

1 - The plated weights of the prime mover (towing vehicle) and the trailer (if it has a plate) must not be exceeded.
2 - If the tyres on the trailer have load ratings then they must not be exceeded.
3 - The load on the towing hitch must not exceed manufacturers safe limits
4 - It is RECOMMENDED by manufacturers that the trailer does not exceed the weight of the towing vehicle at any time for safety purposes - this is not written in LAW but may lead to a safety prosecution if not followed


EXAMPLES

smontagu wrote:my 90 t350 has a gtw of 5750kgs, i have a car trailer with a wax weight of 3500 kgs, i understand this to mean that i could theoretically put a few hundred kilos of "crap" in my van and as long as it only weighs 2250kgs i would be able to pull the max of 3500 behind (750kg trailer with 2750kg porsche cayenne on it) and still be legal

The train weight would be legal but as the trailer would weigh more than prime mover then, although not illegal to do that, it would be super unsafe and probably against the manufacturers recommendations
Any incident would land the driver in very hot water with the authorities - probably a charge of driving a vehicle/combination in an unsafe manner or suchlike...


smontagu wrote:on the other hand i could load my van up to 3500 kgs and tow my trailer as long as car on trailer was no heavier than 1500 kgs (trailer 750/car 1500 total 2250) i would be ok

Perfectly safe and weight legal


smontagu wrote:somebody has told me that becaulse my van has gvw of 3500 and gtw of 5750 the trailer i could tow (trailer and car combined) MUST not exceed 2250 kgs even if my van was empty as gtw is subject/worked out by GVW of van plus trailed weight, not ACTUAL weight of van plus trailed weight.

Not true - the train weight goes on the total ACTUAL weight and not the plated weights but each plated weight must not be exceeded.

LSi wrote: I have a Mk5 SWB 150 rated at 5,200kg GTW

I got the van on a weighbridge a while back with a full tank of fuel, a usual supply of tools and me in it, and it weighed just under 2200kg, I never have more than this in it for towing. So we can safely assume my 'job ready' kerb weight is under 2200kg.

I use a Brian James trailer which is plated at 3000kg, and weighs 750kg... it has a load capacity of 2250kg

I got pulled over and taken to a weighbridge just a couple of miles after leaving, which was a first for me. The GTW with the landrover on the trailer come in at 4941kg

LEGAL as neither the GVW of the prime mover or trailer has been exceeded and nor has the total of both ACTUAL weights exceeded the train weight

Geoffers wrote:My 260 with a GVW of 2600kgs and a GTW of 3500kgs. Which if these scenarios would I be legal (if any)?

Scenario A - I get weighed and the van weighs 2000kgs. I am towing an unplated caravan or boat that weighs 1500kgs

Scenario B - I get weighed and the van weighs 2000kgs. I am towing a boat with a trailer plated for 1000kgs but the actual weight of the trailer and boat weighs 900kgs

A = legal
B = legal


LICENCES

Towing with vehicles under 3.5 tonnes

The rules on B & B+E licences are a bit weird...

The licence required to drive a van of 3.5 tonnes plated weight or under is a B
B licence holders can tow a combination up to 3.5 tonnes so a 2 tonne car towing a 1.5 tonne trailer/caravan is legal OR the towing vehicle (prime mover) was 3.5 tonnes and the trailer was 750kgs max making a total of 4.25 tonnes

B+E would be required if the combination was above those examples

ME wrote:.. a C1 licence holder can legally drive a Unit as long as its under 7490 kgs and solo

If the PLATED weight is 7.5 tonnes or under then yes

... my B+E entitlement means that the MAM of the trailer doesn't have to be less than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

Correct :D but see prime mover & trailer weight issues above


TACHOGRAPHS & EU REGS

A tachograph will always be needed when towing a trailer commercially where the combination weight is over 3.5 tonnes and will be required for the rest of that day whether the trailer is used or not

On any day when the trailer is not used then the tachograph does not need to be used either but if the tacho has been used in that WEEK (mon 0000 to sun 2400) then the other days must be officially recorded as other work.
This is because the weekly rest requirements for the EU driver regs MUST be adhered to.

In any week (mon 0000 to sun 2400) where you drive under EU regs then, for all the other days that week you worked an official record must be made either by inputting the info into a digi (time consuming) or using a seperate digi printout or a seperate analogue card (easiest option IMO) for each day.
Each seperate record must have your name, date, start & finish time on it.
After 28 days the records for the time spent on non-tacho days can be binned as the operators of the vehicle(s) you drove only want the records for the days that you drove their vehicle(s)

Any WTD concerns are easily sorted because non-tacho days are under the 'normal' WTD which can be opted out of.
Driving days that come under EU regs count for the RT(WTD)R - the 'mobile workers' WTD



I hope all this helps and has not confused anyone too much !!
EX IAM car and commercial observer
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:41 pm

In the above post I wrote -
A tachograph will always be needed when towing a trailer commercially where the combination weight is over 3.5 tonnes and will be required for the rest of that day whether the trailer is used or not
I should have added - unless an exemption applies
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby dieseldog6 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:54 pm

(ROG) wrote:In the above post I wrote -
A tachograph will always be needed when towing a trailer commercially where the combination weight is over 3.5 tonnes and will be required for the rest of that day whether the trailer is used or not
I should have added - unless an exemption applies


you actually need to use the tacho/records for the rest of the week and keep 28 days tachos with you.

But what I am glad about Rog is clearing up the GTW issue, when I got done for tacho the other week, I brought this question up with them and they wouldn't have it, well I had already spoken to someone at VOSA Swansea about it, who after over 30 mins on the phone came back to me and was very appologetic to say I was right, so long as the GTW is not exceeded it doesn't matter what the trailer is plated for.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:54 pm

you actually need to use the tacho/records for the rest of the week and keep 28 days tachos with you.

I think I put that info near the bottom of the first post in this thread
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos

Postby (ROG) » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:49 pm

(ROG) wrote: LICENCES

Towing with vehicles under 3.5 tonnes

The rules on B & B+E licences are a bit weird...

The licence required to drive a van of 3.5 tonnes plated weight or under is a B
B licence holders can tow a combination up to 3.5 tonnes so a 2 tonne car towing a 1.5 tonne trailer/caravan is legal OR the towing vehicle (prime mover) was 3.5 tonnes and the trailer was 750kgs max making a total of 4.25 tonnes

B+E would be required if the combination was above those examples

ADD -
The total of the gross plated weights for the towing vehicle and the trailer must be added together to see which licence is required so if the towing vehicle has a gross plated weight of 3 tonnes and the trailer has a gross plated weight of 2 tonnes then that is 5 tonnes so a B+E licence is required as they add up to more than 3.5 tonnes.




(ROG) wrote:TACHOGRAPHS & EU REGS

A tachograph will always be needed when towing a trailer commercially where the combination weight is over 3.5 tonnes

Again, it is the total of the gross plated weights that determine whether a tacho is required
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:22 pm

(ROG) wrote:In the above post I wrote -
A tachograph will always be needed when towing a trailer commercially where the combination weight is over 3.5 tonnes and will be required for the rest of that day whether the trailer is used or not
I should have added - unless an exemption applies

A VOSA expert has written THIS on another site but I thought it may be very useful here as it refers to a vehicle under 3.5 tonnes GVW but has a train weight of over 3.5 tonnes
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:23 pm

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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby ginsambo » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:08 pm

My Mk5 190 Chassis Cab weighs 2000kg unladen. It is plated for 5500kg GTW and 3500kg GVW. I've always assumed a 2000kg plated trailer with a mini digger on etc. is legal, whether I'm laden or unladen. Are you saying I now need a Tacho to drive at 5500kg GTW? I have the older 7.5T driving licence but these Tacho rules bemuse me.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby ginsambo » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:12 pm

Is towing a minidigger for my own work classed as commercial use necessitating a Tacho, or do they mean for 'hire and reward', eg car transporter transporting someone's vehicle as a service etc. I'm not getting a Tacho, Tacho's suck, never used to need a Tacho.
This is bullshit.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:19 pm

ginsambo wrote:Is towing a minidigger for my own work classed as commercial use necessitating a Tacho, or do they mean for 'hire and reward', eg car transporter transporting someone's vehicle as a service etc.

If it is for a business/commercial use then tacho usually required unless an exemption applies but if for private then not required
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby jwer23 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:08 pm

hi anyone know if this is still up to date? i've been looking on directgov website and it seems they are going on gross vehicle mass or maximum authoursied mass (MAM as they call it) for their measurements?
i have the post 1997 lisence so i take it with a 52 plate 100ps t280 swb i can only tow a caravan with a MAM plate of 700kg?! thats tiny!! i dont have a log book but looking at the plate on passenger b pillar there is a weight labled 'D' of 2640kg which may be the mam, but odd as van is a 280 (2,800kg?!), 'R' of 3500kg which i presume is GTM, 'E' of 1400kg (not sure) and another of 1550kg, again not sure what this refers to!
any help would be greatly apprecited, this is a complete ball ache!!
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:36 pm

jwer23 wrote:hi anyone know if this is still up to date? i've been looking on directgov website and it seems they are going on gross vehicle mass or maximum authoursied mass (MAM as they call it) for their measurements?
i have the post 1997 lisence so i take it with a 52 plate 100ps t280 swb i can only tow a caravan with a MAM plate of 700kg?! thats tiny!! i dont have a log book but looking at the plate on passenger b pillar there is a weight labled 'D' of 2640kg which may be the mam, but odd as van is a 280 (2,800kg?!), 'R' of 3500kg which i presume is GTM, 'E' of 1400kg (not sure) and another of 1550kg, again not sure what this refers to!
any help would be greatly apprecited, this is a complete ball ache!!


With a B licence you can tow up to a combination weight of 3.5 tonnes PROVIDING the actual weight of the trailer does exceed the UNLADEN weight of the towing vehicle

It seems as though you are allowed a total combined weight of 3.5 tonnes so lets say that you weigh your van empty on a weighbridge and it comes out at 2 tonnes
that means you can tow a trailer weighing 1.5 tonnes with that empty van

Assuming the above again, then loading the van with 0.5 tonnes making it 2.5 tonnes, means that the trailer must not weigh more than 1 tonne

MAM or GVWs do not really come into this until the towing vehicle is above 3.5 tonnes (a C1 LGV licence) but any weights listed on a plate must not be exceeded
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby ake » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:34 pm

jwer23 wrote:hi anyone know if this is still up to date? i've been looking on directgov website and it seems they are going on gross vehicle mass or maximum authoursied mass (MAM as they call it) for their measurements?
i have the post 1997 lisence so i take it with a 52 plate 100ps t280 swb i can only tow a caravan with a MAM plate of 700kg?! thats tiny!! i dont have a log book but looking at the plate on passenger b pillar there is a weight labled 'D' of 2640kg which may be the mam, but odd as van is a 280 (2,800kg?!), 'R' of 3500kg which i presume is GTM, 'E' of 1400kg (not sure) and another of 1550kg, again not sure what this refers to!
any help would be greatly apprecited, this is a complete ball ache!!

Unfortunately as you have an early 280 the figures you quote are correct, MGW of 2640kg and MTW of 3500kg, the two other figures are the maximum front and rear axle weights. Later 260/280s have higher gross vehicle weights. To tow a decent caravan you need to first do your trailer test, and then buy a RWD Transit which can tow a decent weight. FWDs are not built or plated for towing
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:07 pm

ake wrote:Unfortunately as you have an early 280 the figures you quote are correct, MGW of 2640kg and MTW of 3500kg, the two other figures are the maximum front and rear axle weights. Later 260/280s have higher gross vehicle weights. To tow a decent caravan you need to first do your trailer test, and then buy a RWD Transit which can tow a decent weight. FWDs are not built or plated for towing

I do not know about the capabilities of towing for particular vans so bow to ake on that point

you do not always need to pass the towing test in order to tow - it just depends on what you wish to tow and with what vehicle
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby jwer23 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 pm

thanks for the replys lads, but i'm still confused!! having looked again on the direct gov website it seems to me (but i must add its more than likely im misunderstanding!!) that they go by plated maximum authorised mass? i'm looking a smallish caravan (dont need owt massive so the 280 will be fine) with one weight of 750kg (unladen i presume) and one of 1300kg (mam im guessing)
with that being the case, if they went on mam plated weights the 1300 would be too high for me, but if going on roadside weights it would be fine, as total would be under 3.5 tons combined and the trailer would be less than 85% of the weight of the towing vehicle....?

to confuse matters further i spoke to some highways police wannabe types in the service station yesterday and they reckoned that i couldnt tow anything due to my lisence, however i think theryre wrong, and even if they werent i probably wouldnt listen as they have no enforcement powers anyway!
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