Mk7 injection learn problem

[loot]

I had the fuel rail off, the injectors pipes off, the prv off, the scv off.
Put it all back together and simply turned the key to start, took roughly 8-10 seconds and it burst into life, revved it for a bit and that was it.

[v8dave]

I had the fuel rail off, the injectors pipes off, the prv off, the scv off.
Put it all back together and simply turned the key to start, took roughly 8-10 seconds and it burst into life, revved it for a bit and that was it.

Given my luck I'll sort the priming tool first.

IDS suggests three minutes at 3,000 rpm to clear air out of the injection system....

I think the usual filter change advise of running it a bit before you dismantle will probably help.

[loot]

Yes park on flat ground, minimal of quarter of a tank of fuel, 3 mins at 3k revs then 3 mins at tickover.

If you change fuel filter do it and give a good run of engine so that you have no air in the system, then do the rest.

[v8dave]

Been a while since this problem reared it's head, time for an update just in case anyone finds it in a search.

PRV and SCV have been replaced, PRV was not obviously failed but the diagnostic test for PRV failure and to verify code P1250 or P0089 was showing a fuel rail pressure of 1600 bar.
Engine now sounds a lot better after pump learn, injection pilot learn to follow shortly but it failed first attempt when the engine stalled on dropping the revs after one of the learn points.

[loot]

You get upto 3 tries as stated by ids, you sometimes have to try again, try injector learn then try pump learn again, that's what i had to do anyway lol.
Glad you sorted it

[v8dave]

You get upto 3 tries as stated by ids, you sometimes have to try again, try injector learn then try pump learn again, that's what i had to do anyway lol.
Glad you sorted it

It isn't right yet

Injection pilot learn will not complete. No codes other than the injection pilot learn failure but it just will not do the full sequence, it gives no error message on the abort of procedure.
Is the 3 tries limit in the pcm or ids ? Think either I need to wipe the pcm memory or update the calibration or start a new session in ids.

I have not tried the metering valve diagnostic again but to clarify the my earlier post the desired and actual fuel pressures were not matching, the actual pressure was well above the desired pressure so the system was over fueling but had possibly not blown the valve.

To cap it all it's being a sod to start when hot, like the battery is flat but if you leave if to cool it starts perfectly
I'm wondering if putting a new pair of batteries in might make a difference.

[loot]

Ids isn't limited to 3 pump learns but it does say after 3 it needs fixing.
If the injectors aren't learning is probably fluctuating engine/fuel but if you replaced prv/scv then there must be another problem, ids does say 1/4 tank of fuel.
Good batteries may or may not help.
Could try blanking the egr, mine learnt straight away with it blanked but wheni took the blank out is when it tooka couple of goes
I forget, did you do a leak off on the injectors?

[v8dave]

Ids isn't limited to 3 pump learns but it does say after 3 it needs fixing.

Yes, but what needs fixing ?

If the injectors aren't learning is probably fluctuating engine/fuel but if you replaced prv/scv then there must be another problem, ids does say 1/4 tank of fuel.

Could be a bad injector but why do I not get an error code when ids aborts the learn ? It can't even complete the temporary learn now. Tank is over 3/4 on the gauge. There is only one gasket on the SCV now, I'm starting to have my doubts about previous work on this van......

Good batteries may or may not help.
Could try blanking the egr, mine learnt straight away with it blanked but when i took the blank out is when it took a couple of goes
I forget, did you do a leak off on the injectors?

Have not done the injector leak off test for two reasons, 1) I don't have the test kit and 2) the diagnostic showed over fueling - even at light throttle when driving it was over pressuring the rail.
The batteries issue is still open but no one I've asked can identify a fault or explain why it only intermittently affects hot starting.

[martynx]

Have you reset the Prv counters Dave ?

[v8dave]

Have you reset the Prv counters Dave ?

Martyn, thanks for that suggestion - i'll try that.

Is there a way of reading the prv count or duration if they are set ?
Shouldn't there be a dtc if they are set ?

I'm going to try a suggestion from Loot in another thread of doing injector learn then pump but since that puts the operations out of sequence ?
There is also a newer calibration which I've down loaded from motorcraft but I can find out if I need to unzip the file. IDS calibrations folder is full of zips but I wonder if ids is looking for the vbf file.

May well be calling you soon for an appointment

[loot]

Prv counter reset will either say successful or operation not required according to my recent findings, it's all worth a try, but in reality a bit of try this, try that, then try this again has worked for me.
I'm sure you'll sort it soon enough.
I tried putting cal update zip in and mine said no updates found

[martynx]

Have you reset the Prv counters Dave ?

Martyn, thanks for that suggestion - i'll try that.

Is there a way of reading the prv count or duration if they are set ?
Shouldn't there be a dtc if they are set ?

I'm going to try a suggestion from Loot in another thread of doing injector learn then pump but since that puts the operations out of sequence ?
There is also a newer calibration which I've down loaded from motorcraft but I can find out if I need to unzip the file. IDS calibrations folder is full of zips but I wonder if ids is looking for the vbf file.

May well be calling you soon for an appointment

Cool & nope we dont get to see the counter values.. only way to potentially discover them would be to read the BCM's 912MCU before & after resetting them. No counter specific DTC is set either so its a case of having a late-ish cal in place that supports the counter reset procedure & resetting them whenever the PRV is replaced. The counters have a crucial input to fueling calculations..

& as Loot says, (assuming no physical problem with the injectors) its a case of tricking the system into doing both learns by doing the service functions on the wrong order or doing from cold or from hot etc.. Once you have done both successfully , you should then be able to redo them in the right order..

[v8dave]

Cool & nope we dont get to see the counter values.. only way to potentially discover them would be to read the BCM's 912MCU before & after resetting them. No counter specific DTC is set either so its a case of having a late-ish cal in place that supports the counter reset procedure & resetting them whenever the PRV is replaced. The counters have a crucial input to fueling calculations..

If I get past playing with reading the bcmii coding from file I might think about that, could potentially be useful to know how the pcm flags faults - I'm assuming they don't become dtc as we recognise them until read by ids. Of course the prv triggered bit only needs to be either 0 or 1 so it's only a flag bit, then the duration only needs to be a total from a counter that increments because the flag bit is set and the engine is running.

& as Loot says, (assuming no physical problem with the injectors) its a case of tricking the system into doing both learns by doing the service functions on the wrong order or doing from cold or from hot etc.. Once you have done both successfully , you should then be able to redo them in the right order..

I'll try that.
Question - do I need the calibration currently in the pcm available to ids on the pc ?
I do have a recent calibration ( VH from memory ) downloaded from the motorcraft service but I don't remember having the file for the calibration on the van. I'm assuming the calibration updates issued with ids have the lastest appropriate calibrations or is that too optimistic. I do have the counter reset function available in ids and have assumed that because the calibration on the van has been read that it will be supported, or is ids working from database info from the chassis number. Be nice to know how the system is designed to work. I'll read the manual next to see if updates for calibrations are supposed to be unzipped.

[martynx]

All excellent points to ponder on Dave

My head is inside project Agent Orange at the mo, so I'm of little use to You or anyone for a bit

[loot]

As far as i know ids reads your vin from the pcm which it then loads in the appropriate files in Ford motorcraft services-ids-calibrations(something like that) and sees the calibration info which will have the pcm data there, it will see if the ids calibration data is newer than that on the pcm currently and if so allow you to update it when you go into module programming-module reprogramming-pcm. Future online downloads will need to be put in the right folder and in the right format for it to be recognised, as directed by mototcraft services online (don't ask me lol) otherwise if you have c81 loaded already then no update is available

Imo i think it's a bit of a goose chase trying to update the calibration to perform the injectors learn, it may well work if the update has made changes to the fueling that will smooth out the data you need for a successful learn but i can't help feeling that something isn't quite in tip top shape hence the problem.
Jmo.