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New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby v8dave » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:41 pm

paul2012 wrote:VOSA don't exist anymore. :roll:

They have been replaced by DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency)

Quite true, but the info I have was generated by foi requests to dvla and vosa so it is correct to refer to it as such.
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby superclarkey » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:14 pm

Thanks for that I've read through it, the wording is still a little confusing but it's suggests that if I use it for recovery I would be exempt?

Would collecting a car where no money was charged to pick a disabled car to repair be recovery and it's not goods, as I'm not selling the car?
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby paul2012 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:44 pm

superclarkey wrote:Thanks for that I've read through it, the wording is still a little confusing but it's suggests that if I use it for recovery I would be exempt?

Would collecting a car where no money was charged to pick a disabled car to repair be recovery and it's not goods, as I'm not selling the car?


Its still classed a goods/ burden :!:

For transporting vehicles.
Recovery vehicles with a GVW of over 3500kg (3.5t) - Specialised breakdown vehicles operating within a 100 km (62 mile) radius of their base. are exempt from Tacho

Specialised breakdown vehicles are proper recovery vehicles :!:

Car transporter trailers are still classed as trailers. Even when transporting a car by A-frame, is classed as a trailer as with towing with dollies.

If you're collecting customers vehicles with your car trailer & taking then to your place of work or your business to be repaired. Its obvious either you or your business is going to charge for the repairs.
Even if you don't charge for the collection & dropping off. It's still classed as commercial use, as it's being use inline with a business & if over 3500kg MAM then Tacho is required if traveling more than 31 mile radius from base. :roll:

Unless your using a proper recovery vehicle, it's exempt form Tacho if GVW more than 3500kg used within a 62 mile radius of base. Or if GVW is 3500kg or less :wink:
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby superclarkey » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:11 pm

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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby paul2012 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:17 pm

superclarkey wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/210144/guide-for-recovery-operations.pdf


Extract from that.....

"An operator’s licence is required by anyone who uses a vehicle of more than 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight (the maximum combined weight of vehicle and load) for carrying any kind of goods or livestock in connection with a business.

Recovery vehicles exemption
There is no doubt that a recovery vehicle is exempt from operator licensing, however, the starting point of the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 is that all vehicles over 3500 kgs used for the carriage of goods are in scope of operator licensing, and vehicles which are used to transport other vehicles (‘recovery’ or ‘breakdown’) fall within that definition. It’s also the case though that the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995 provide numerous exemptions from operator licensing, and one of these is “a recovery vehicle”.
The aforementioned Act then refers to the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act for the definition of recovery.

If a vehicle’s physical construction and use are not consistent with the definition of recovery as stipulated by the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act, and it is used for transporting vehicles, the vehicle is in scope of operator licensing. It isn’t enough for a vehicle to have all the physical attributes of a recovery vehicle; it must be used for the specific purposes detailed in the definition.
For example, a ‘breakdown’ or ‘recovery’ vehicle transporting a non-disabled car from one garage forecourt to another, would be classed as a haulage operation, despite what the towing vehicle might look like. Such a journey would fall within the scope of “carriage of goods for hire or reward”."


IN LAYMENS TERMS......

Any goods vehicle or vehicle & trailer combination with a combined MAM of more than 3500kg (3.5t) & use in connection with a business - Operators Licence is required.

A recovery vechicle is contructed & used as such would be registered as a recovery vehicle. This would also be listed on V5 & qualify for the cheaper road tax rate. :P
Recovery vehicles are exempt if operating within a 100km (62 mile) radius from base. providing the vehicle they are transporting is disabled (broken down)

If recovery vehicle is transporting a non disabled car, e.g one that has been repaired.
It's then class as haulage - Recovery vehicle no longer qualifies for cheaper road tax :(

Your Transit van with car transporter trailer does NOT fit the definition of "Recovery vehicle" & with a combined MAM of more than 3500kg (3.5t). If used in connection of a business, you will require a operators licence.

Unfortunately it does not fall under the definition of "dual purpose" vehicle either. Like 4X4's are. Due to being currently registered as a Light goods Vehicle. :idea:


Even if you' re transporting you own vehicle if its not disabled e.g broken down.
if Unladen trailer weight is more than 1020kg & towing vehicle & trailers combined MAM of is more than 3500kg. You require a restricted operators licence
. :!: :!:
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby superclarkey » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:36 pm

Does say as long as th vehicle is exclusively for recovery with a trailer it can be classed as a recovery vehicle.

Also from vosa

Recovery vehicles
Schedule 3 to the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995, lists the categories of goods vehicle that are exempt from operator licensing. Schedule 3 para (27) prescribes that a recovery vehicle is exempt from the requirementforanoperatorslicencetobeheld.A recoveryvehicle isdefinedin Part V of Schedule 1 to the Vehicle and Excise and Registration Act 1994, as; a vehicle which is constructed or permanently adapted primarily for any one of the purposes of lifting, towing and transporting a disabled vehicle .
The 1994 Act does not give a definition of disabled . In our view it should be givenitsordinarymeaning renderedincapableofactionoruse (OxfordEnglish Dictionary).
Therefore, if the vehicle will be used exclusively for the removal of a disabled vehicle either from a place where it became disabled to a place where it is to be repaired or scrapped; or, from premises to which it was taken for repair to other premises at which it is to be repaired or scrapped, this would meet the criteria for recovery and an operator s licence will not be required.


So I wouldn't be able to move running cars but none of my cars run they are been recovered and then customer collects.


I'm waiting for reply to my email before I jump to any decisions on selling the van for a 4x4 most likely a Range Rover eek:
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby paul2012 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:52 pm

superclarkey wrote:Does say as long as th vehicle is exclusively for recovery with a trailer it can be classed as a recovery vehicle.

Also from vosa

Recovery vehicles
Schedule 3 to the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995, lists the categories of goods vehicle that are exempt from operator licensing. Schedule 3 para (27) prescribes that a recovery vehicle is exempt from the requirementforanoperatorslicencetobeheld.A recoveryvehicle isdefinedin Part V of Schedule 1 to the Vehicle and Excise and Registration Act 1994, as; a vehicle which is constructed or permanently adapted primarily for any one of the purposes of lifting, towing and transporting a disabled vehicle .
The 1994 Act does not give a definition of disabled . In our view it should be givenitsordinarymeaning renderedincapableofactionoruse (OxfordEnglish Dictionary).
Therefore, if the vehicle will be used exclusively for the removal of a disabled vehicle either from a place where it became disabled to a place where it is to be repaired or scrapped; or, from premises to which it was taken for repair to other premises at which it is to be repaired or scrapped, this would meet the criteria for recovery and an operator s licence will not be required.


So I wouldn't be able to move running cars but none of my cars run they are been recovered and then customer collects.

I'm waiting for reply to my email before I jump to any decisions on selling the van for a 4x4 most likely a Range Rover eek:


"A recovery vehicle is defined in Part V of Schedule 1 to the Vehicle and Excise and Registration Act 1994, as; a vehicle which is constructed or permanently adapted primarily for any one of the purposes of lifting, towing and transporting a disabled vehicle".

That is a proper recovery vehicle constructed/adapted & registered as such. For example Transit recovery with a spec lift on the back tows vehicles by lifting front wheels off the road a drags it :wink:

A Transit van with a car transporter trailer does not fall under the definition of a recovery vehicle. It's not a permanently adapted - unhitch trailer & you have a van

If you want to avoid an operators licence, buy a 4X4. If operating within a 62 mile radius from base, get a Transit recovery (BEAVERTAIL) :wink:
Or get a LWB Transit chassis cab & make your own. 8)
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby MK7 user » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:53 pm

You've sent a sizeable e-mail there, bear in mind this is the public sector you are dealing with here, that'll keep six of 'em busy for a week or more. :shock: :mrgreen:

I don't see how your tow vehicle is (or will be any time soon) anything other than a category N1 vehicle that will remain in that taxation class until it is modified or adapted to meet the requirements of "Recovery Vehicle" classification. :(
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby superclarkey » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:00 am

I had a transit beaver tail years ago and even with alloy bed it was still 2.2 tones only allowing 1300kilos on the back, so was very useless tbh, I'm sure everyone that has them is over weights ways but they don't care, difference is I do.

That's why I took my b+e to be legal, now you say it's not been modified for the purpose of recovery, but is had a tow bar fitted and a purpose built trailer for the use of recovery built :-p not standard items.... Could be argued.

If they want it to be only for the use of recovery I'll weld the hitch lock in so it can't be detached, now it would be a built for the use of recovery only :-)

they say you can operate a recovery service and remove a car without the need of the license, that's all I want to do. Not looking to become a haulage service.

If all I have to do is fit a tachograph I can deal with that, but an operators license for what I do is plain redicilous...

Can't use the van to go home in without advertising for objections.
Have to have £3500 in the bank to prove I can upkeep the van.
I have to park the car at unit "at depot"
I have Have a service contract for the work "can't do it myself"
Have to enter my work times into tachograph even if I don't use van for weeks.
Have to have a transport manager to do my paperwork that can't be me.
Have to pass a £1100 operators licence test (that's what I was quoted today)
Have to do a £300 course to prove I can use tachograph
Require a drivers card and a company card
I have to document my servicing even if not in use.



It's not just a little cost it's like £2500 for what, so I can move a car on my trailer maybe once a month for no money because I wouldn't charge lol

or

Buy a beaver tail, be over my GTW and Take a risk.

I would sooner sell my van for like £6-6.5k put the 2.5k towards my cash pile and have £8-9k to buy a posh Range Rover with a Bmw that's not much faster but I have heated seats, all because it's dual purpose lol be sure never to take it off road, bet my transit could be as just much off road if I weld the diff..
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby MK7 user » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:18 am

I don't disagree with you - the rules & regulations do seem a complete ass at times. I've seen pictures on here of beaver tails carrying Defenders & Discovery's, no idea how they get away with it. :?
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby superclarkey » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:20 am

Ok here is a twist can you change the class to a dual purpose vehicle?

Row of seats, glass sides and rear and a bit of carpet, toss in a snooker table for the games room and boom, no longer require a tachograph lol
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby paul2012 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:47 am

You can get Transit mk7 T460 recovery (Bearvertail) They can carry a payload weight of 2400kg (2.4t) :wink:

Unfortunately you'll need a cat C1 licence to drive it, as it's GVW is 4600kg (4.6t)
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby superclarkey » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:16 pm

Tell this to all the 3.5t drivers that don't give a sh*t haha
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby MK7 user » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:13 pm

superclarkey wrote:Ok here is a twist can you change the class to a dual purpose vehicle?

Row of seats, glass sides and rear and a bit of carpet, toss in a snooker table for the games room and boom, no longer require a tachograph lol


That depends on how much you are willing to throw at it. :arrow:

To meet the definition of "dual purpose vehicle" as defined in the Construction & Use Regulations, you'll need to obtain a "G" on your vehicle category....second row seating on it's own will not meet that definition & neither will 4WD on it's own, it needs to have both. :cry:

The "G" represents permanent or selectable 4WD as in group category N1G or M1G. :wink:
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Re: New trailer want to know what my weight limits are...

Postby paul2012 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:44 pm

superclarkey wrote:Tell this to all the 3.5t drivers that don't give a sh*t haha


Some people go way overboard....

Image


:shock: :lol:
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