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Rough idle but only sometimes

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Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby kylezx7r » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:41 pm

I have a 2009 2.4 LWB RWD and every now and again it has an idling issue.

I posted this a while back but it went away

Anyway normally the van is great but sometimes (maybe twice a week) when the engine is just ticking over on idle it judders quite violently then smooths out again for 7-8 seconds then judders again and this will go on for a little while then the issue goes away completely for a few days

The judders are just brief and I thought maybe an injector or something

Can anyone shed some light on this pls
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby knobby1 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:01 pm

How old is your fuel filter..!?? Have you had the codes read lately?? EGR playing up maybe.??

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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby kylezx7r » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:18 am

knobby1 wrote:How old is your fuel filter..!?? Have you had the codes read lately?? EGR playing up maybe.??

Lord Knobrot


Fuel filter changed around 3 months ago, not had codes read but I will get it arranged, not sure about EGR am I just better off replacing it or is there a good way to test it?
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby dnorkett » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:03 pm

Don't just replace the egr, it might not be that. It could be a failing PRV and or SCV (on the common rail and fuel pump) or it might need a PCM update. You would need to have a look at the fuel rail pressure on some diagnostics
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby knobby1 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:12 pm

kylezx7r wrote:
knobby1 wrote:How old is your fuel filter..!?? Have you had the codes read lately?? EGR playing up maybe.??

Lord Knobrot


Fuel filter changed around 3 months ago, not had codes read but I will get it arranged, not sure about EGR am I just better off replacing it or is there a good way to test it?


Hey Kyle....As dnorkett says, It may be worth getting a pump & pilot/injector learn done along with a PCM update if it hasn't been done recently...this often helps.

I may be talking a load of crap but this is what I think may happen with our Mk7 TDCi machines....As the pump, injectors, SCV & PRV slowly wear over time & mileage, their characteristics will slowly change which in turn causes the original calibrations to be "out of limits" and the engine starts to show "symptoms" such as you have described.... this is where the "learns" may help, essentially they just "re-calibrate" the system to allow for the slight changes over time. As long as the fuel system items aren't damaged or faulty, the learns and update should help.

With the EGR, they're a known "weak point" but I wouldn't replace it until you know for sure....can you hear it do it's "self clean" procedure after you shut the engine down?? It sometimes sounds like a small hack-saw being used for a couple of seconds. It may be worth removing it and giving it a good clean too. With the 2.4's, although it sounds couter-intuitive, it's easier to remove the inlet manifold first as it's difficult to access the EGR bolts with the manifold in place.

Some of us have IDS, but there are cheap code readers which able to do "real-time" readouts, this will allow you to see if the EGR is indeed working. If it was not working properly you may have stored fault codes which can also throw up an associated MAF and/or MAP sensor fault codes too. Your MAP sensor may probably need a clean too if you haven't done it recently, they get all caked up with crud... it lives in the steel inlet pipe attached to the inlet manifold, it's held in with a single 7mm headed bolt.

I had several EGR fault codes pop up with my beast when I first bought it last year, I just replaced it and the old EGR was pulled apart, I gave it a good clean out to allow it to give a full sweep of the valve, it was all "carboned up" and the valve was never able to fully open or close... and now I have a "spare". :wink:

Cheers,
Smithy.
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby kylezx7r » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:46 pm

knobby1 wrote:
kylezx7r wrote:
knobby1 wrote:How old is your fuel filter..!?? Have you had the codes read lately?? EGR playing up maybe.??

Lord Knobrot


Fuel filter changed around 3 months ago, not had codes read but I will get it arranged, not sure about EGR am I just better off replacing it or is there a good way to test it?


Hey Kyle....As dnorkett says, It may be worth getting a pump & pilot/injector learn done along with a PCM update if it hasn't been done recently...this often helps.

I may be talking a load of crap but this is what I think may happen with our Mk7 TDCi machines....As the pump, injectors, SCV & PRV slowly wear over time & mileage, their characteristics will slowly change which in turn causes the original calibrations to be "out of limits" and the engine starts to show "symptoms" such as you have described.... this is where the "learns" may help, essentially they just "re-calibrate" the system to allow for the slight changes over time. As long as the fuel system items aren't damaged or faulty, the learns and update should help.

With the EGR, they're a known "weak point" but I wouldn't replace it until you know for sure....can you hear it do it's "self clean" procedure after you shut the engine down?? It sometimes sounds like a small hack-saw being used for a couple of seconds. It may be worth removing it and giving it a good clean too. With the 2.4's, although it sounds couter-intuitive, it's easier to remove the inlet manifold first as it's difficult to access the EGR bolts with the manifold in place.

Some of us have IDS, but there are cheap code readers which able to do "real-time" readouts, this will allow you to see if the EGR is indeed working. If it was not working properly you may have stored fault codes which can also throw up an associated MAF and/or MAP sensor fault codes too. Your MAP sensor may probably need a clean too if you haven't done it recently, they get all caked up with crud... it lives in the steel inlet pipe attached to the inlet manifold, it's held in with a single 7mm headed bolt.

I had several EGR fault codes pop up with my beast when I first bought it last year, I just replaced it and the old EGR was pulled apart, I gave it a good clean out to allow it to give a full sweep of the valve, it was all "carboned up" and the valve was never able to fully open or close... and now I have a "spare". :wink:

Cheers,
Smithy.


Smithy
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that i appreciate it and it has educated me a fair bit.

To get the pilot/injector learn done and the PCM update is this a dealer only job or can anyone suggest somewhere else? I live in Consett co.durham so in north east
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby knobby1 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:25 pm

kylezx7r wrote:Smithy
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that i appreciate it and it has educated me a fair bit.

To get the pilot/injector learn done and the PCM update is this a dealer only job or can anyone suggest somewhere else? I live in Consett co.durham so in north east


Anyone competent with IDS can do it, I'd do it for you but I think it might be a bit far for you to travel.. :wink:

One of our friendly members may be able to help if you're willing to travel a bit, will normally cost a nice cup of tea or a beverage or two....and a couple of cupcakes.....here's a link to "Loot's IDS map":

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... YKY7ZUgcrA

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby dnorkett » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:35 pm

The pump learn/pilot can only be done with IDS, it does help, as long as the PRV is not in bits. The PRV on the common rail moves and keeps the rail pressure stable, so like knobby says it wears out over time and needs to be re calibrated. Pcm updates are just software updates that change the acceptable operating limits of sensors…I think!

Loot has an IDS map on his signature, or you could just go to fords and get it done. I haven't come across many garages that have IDS but you could get lucky if you look for a ford specialist

I have IDS I'm In East london though, so unless your down this way its to far for me!
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby bambi mk 1 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:07 pm

dnorkett wrote:The pump learn/pilot can only be done with IDS, it does help, as long as the PRV is not in bits. The PRV on the common rail moves and keeps the rail pressure stable, so like knobby says it wears out over time and needs to be re calibrated. Pcm updates are just software updates that change the acceptable operating limits of sensors…I think!

Loot has an IDS map on his signature, or you could just go to fords and get it done. I haven't come across many garages that have IDS but you could get lucky if you look for a ford specialist

I have IDS I'm In East london though, so unless your down this way its to far for me!

Snap on readers also do the trick :wink:
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby dnorkett » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:04 pm

Snap on readers also do the trick :wink:


what Snap on reader? I couldn't find one when I was looking
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby bambi mk 1 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:18 pm

dnorkett wrote:
Snap on readers also do the trick :wink:


what Snap on reader? I couldn't find one when I was looking

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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby kylezx7r » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:15 am

knobby1 wrote:
kylezx7r wrote:Smithy
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that i appreciate it and it has educated me a fair bit.

To get the pilot/injector learn done and the PCM update is this a dealer only job or can anyone suggest somewhere else? I live in Consett co.durham so in north east


Anyone competent with IDS can do it, I'd do it for you but I think it might be a bit far for you to travel.. :wink:

One of our friendly members may be able to help if you're willing to travel a bit, will normally cost a nice cup of tea or a beverage or two....and a couple of cupcakes.....here's a link to "Loot's IDS map":

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... YKY7ZUgcrA

Lord Knobrot


Typical, there's no one from Edinburgh to York and I'm right bang in the middle. Think I'll just take it to ford

Cheers for your help guys
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:59 am

kylezx7r wrote:Typical, there's no one from Edinburgh to York and I'm right bang in the middle. Think I'll just take it to ford

Cheers for your help guys


Prepare to pull your pants down and bend over then....charge like a wounded bull some of them..! This is the main reason I got IDS sorted for myself, as I suspect most others on here with IDS did as well...took my Mk7 to Ford once for them to tell me something I already knew....and they charged me $125AUD for the pleasure..! :x

With great help from Loot and a few others on this forum, I can now do just about anything I need to on my Mk7 without being bent over by a pimply faced kid with a Ford shirt and no idea... :lol:

My IDS has paid for itself many times over.. :mrgreen:

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby Mikemk7 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:35 pm

Am following this thread with interest as think my van has the same problem. I to live in County Durham so please post if you find someone other than ford to fix it. Regards Michael
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Re: Rough idle but only sometimes

Postby kylezx7r » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:36 pm

Ok so now that things are quietening down for me over th Christmas I'm now going to get this sorted. I've just spoken to a garage in Darlington who says he doesn't have the IDS but says he can re code the injectors. Could this be right or does it need to be an IDS? I did ask him what equipment he was using but didn't really give me a straight answer
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