Dealership F****d up my van!

[bambi mk 1]

I would replace the scv and prv with genuine and post the area where you live and some nice guy might have ids or similar near you that will sort it out for tea and biccies Otherwise it might go on forever

[loot]

I did the learn on the pump, no one can fathom why the dealer tried to learn the injectors! There is no fault except the injectors can't be learned in, simply because they were done when fitted and over the years tolerances have changed, that's why the ecu won't allow the codes to be re learned, it knows the codes are no longer valid due the the added mileage, they all need to be re-encoded or replaced, they can only be re-encoded on a delphi machine and would probably need to be reconditioned to do it, what would be the point in learning injectors on the original codes if they've done substantial mileage? they'd be worn past the code's spec. So it makes sense, even if they were learned in now they'd be out of tolerance fom the time they were encoded, thus the ECU won't accept a re learn on them, and they cant be erased and even if they could and then learned in the tolerances relating to the codes on them are well and truly past their sell by date so it would be miles out anyway. the dealership unlearned the injectors now the ecu wont accept a new learn and for obvious reasons,
they were working fine up to the point the dealership unlearned them now the ecu has no idea of tolerances or wear on the injectors so it throws a light and runs rough.

It was running fine with no light on when I took it to the dealerhip, they said they'll contact Ford to see what they're prepared to do about it, but Ford didn't screw it up, neither did I, the dealership did, so once again, who should pay to sort this out

There's 2 types of learn.

1. Injector correction factors which is programmed to the pcm and can be done any time but if the injector hasn't been moved or replaced then the number doesn't need to be changed.


2. Injector pilot learn, this is done with the engine running and will only pass if there's no leaks, injectors sate working fine and prv is genuine-as i said above

Whomever told you the above is incorrect in part t.

Do a leak off test on the injectors and if they are between 25-4ml then they're OK, if the prv was not genuine denso it needs binning.

Was the original 1 blown?

[karl]

genuine denso part number is

6c1q-9h321-ab

and that is also ford part number

[Ml Autos]

I did the learn on the pump, no one can fathom why the dealer tried to learn the injectors! There is no fault except the injectors can't be learned in, simply because they were done when fitted and over the years tolerances have changed, that's why the ecu won't allow the codes to be re learned, it knows the codes are no longer valid due the the added mileage, they all need to be re-encoded or replaced, they can only be re-encoded on a delphi machine and would probably need to be reconditioned to do it, what would be the point in learning injectors on the original codes if they've done substantial mileage? they'd be worn past the code's spec. So it makes sense, even if they were learned in now they'd be out of tolerance fom the time they were encoded, thus the ECU won't accept a re learn on them, and they cant be erased and even if they could and then learned in the tolerances relating to the codes on them are well and truly past their sell by date so it would be miles out anyway. the dealership unlearned the injectors now the ecu wont accept a new learn and for obvious reasons,
they were working fine up to the point the dealership unlearned them now the ecu has no idea of tolerances or wear on the injectors so it throws a light and runs rough.

It was running fine with no light on when I took it to the dealerhip, they said they'll contact Ford to see what they're prepared to do about it, but Ford didn't screw it up, neither did I, the dealership did, so once again, who should pay to sort this out

Ok. give us a reading of fuel pressure at idle, reading of fuel corrections.
try to do ppi yourself. sometimes it takes couple of attempts.

"You can't learn in the existing injectors, the learn process can only be done with injectors after they or the ecu has been replaced!
BUULSHIT

[Jim Archer]

I did the learn on the pump, no one can fathom why the dealer tried to learn the injectors! There is no fault except the injectors can't be learned in, simply because they were done when fitted and over the years tolerances have changed, that's why the ecu won't allow the codes to be re learned, it knows the codes are no longer valid due the the added mileage, they all need to be re-encoded or replaced, they can only be re-encoded on a delphi machine and would probably need to be reconditioned to do it, what would be the point in learning injectors on the original codes if they've done substantial mileage? they'd be worn past the code's spec. So it makes sense, even if they were learned in now they'd be out of tolerance fom the time they were encoded, thus the ECU won't accept a re learn on them, and they cant be erased and even if they could and then learned in the tolerances relating to the codes on them are well and truly past their sell by date so it would be miles out anyway. the dealership unlearned the injectors now the ecu wont accept a new learn and for obvious reasons,
they were working fine up to the point the dealership unlearned them now the ecu has no idea of tolerances or wear on the injectors so it throws a light and runs rough.

It was running fine with no light on when I took it to the dealerhip, they said they'll contact Ford to see what they're prepared to do about it, but Ford didn't screw it up, neither did I, the dealership did, so once again, who should pay to sort this out

This is a whole load of hearsay and half truth. Whilst I am not expert on this particular system, they all follow the same basic operations.

You replaced items. Genuine or pattern?

The check light has come on because the learn failed, this is because something is out of calibration enough for it not to pass/complete the learn proceedure.

The reason it did not fail before is because you didn't run that learn proceedure, and the previous coded/learned parameters were good enough for it to run. This does not mean all was well when you ran the learn proceedure that you did, just the system hadn't yet noticed anything amiss - which it would have done eventually.

The injector codes are only ever a ball park set of parameters, close enough to actually get the motor to fire up and run for long enough to hopefully complete the learn proceedures. New injectors will be pretty close, and as they wear, the learned parameters move away from codes until they exceed a range that tells the system the injectors are f***ed. They may be changed at any time, but anything that doesn't correspond within a certain range to the present (and master) pump tables will cause issues unless the various learn proceedures are run, and completed.

The learn proceedures consist of the pump calibrating over the extremes of it's operating range of pressure and delivery. The system knows from the way the Rpm responds to various changes what adjustments and allowances are needed to be logged/tabled for normal operation. Anything outside of a set range causes that learn to fail and the check light to come on.

You need to find out what has caused the learn proceedure to fail/not complete. Whatever it is has caused the ECU to flag a either likely engine damage, or excess emissions situation.

First place I would be looking is the items recently fitted, and if Genooooine Ford/Delphi, then what may have been affected by their replacement i.e. was a failing Inlet valve covering failing injectors? Is the new PRV lifting/passing at a presure that is not in the preset range?

HTH

Jim

[MartinWillmott]

the fuel pressure is correct and the pump learned, so it's not that. the dealership has agreed an injector learn was attempted and failed because you cannot re-learn the existing injectors. Everything on the van is learned in and correct except the injectors so we see an error "Injector learn not done"

[MartinWillmott]

I did the learn on the pump, no one can fathom why the dealer tried to learn the injectors! There is no fault except the injectors can't be learned in, simply because they were done when fitted and over the years tolerances have changed, that's why the ecu won't allow the codes to be re learned, it knows the codes are no longer valid due the the added mileage, they all need to be re-encoded or replaced, they can only be re-encoded on a delphi machine and would probably need to be reconditioned to do it, what would be the point in learning injectors on the original codes if they've done substantial mileage? they'd be worn past the code's spec. So it makes sense, even if they were learned in now they'd be out of tolerance fom the time they were encoded, thus the ECU won't accept a re learn on them, and they cant be erased and even if they could and then learned in the tolerances relating to the codes on them are well and truly past their sell by date so it would be miles out anyway. the dealership unlearned the injectors now the ecu wont accept a new learn and for obvious reasons,
they were working fine up to the point the dealership unlearned them now the ecu has no idea of tolerances or wear on the injectors so it throws a light and runs rough.

It was running fine with no light on when I took it to the dealerhip, they said they'll contact Ford to see what they're prepared to do about it, but Ford didn't screw it up, neither did I, the dealership did, so once again, who should pay to sort this out

Ok. give us a reading of fuel pressure at idle, reading of fuel corrections.
try to do ppi yourself. sometimes it takes couple of attempts.

"You can't learn in the existing injectors, the learn process can only be done with injectors after they or the ecu has been replaced!
BUULSHIT

So every garage that has looked at this and said the same is wrong, that's 3 garages one of which is a diesel specialist doing nothing but diesels, and you're right? let's look at the logic of learning in the original injectors which may have done 130,000 miles since they were fitted, the learn process on injectors is a one shot process simply because when they are fitted the codes tell the ecu the parameters, over the years and miles the ecu compensates for wear so here we are trying to learn injectors as if they're new but with up to 130k on them, would the parameters still be accurate after that sort of use and wear? no! that's why the ecu is forbidden by it's own software to re-learn injectors, it makes perfect sense, The socks you wore at 6 years old wont fit you as a adult will they so why try? and before shouting profanities show me some proof that these experts are wrong and you're right.

[loot]

I have learned injectors that are over 100k.
a good injector will always pass the learn function.

Yours has failed because of reasons I've already said.

We are here trying to save you money, where as the garage aren't.

It is upto you which course of action you want to take but you'll end up reading the whole of this post again after spending lots of money and think, oh, they're not all c**s after all.

[MartinWillmott]

UPDATE! I've just got off the phone to Delphi tech, in order to re learn injectors they need to go onto their system to be measured an re-encoded before they can be learned in. They also said Jacksons of Northampton are one of their top members.

[MartinWillmott]

I have learned injectors that are over 100k.
a good injector will always pass the learn function.

Yours has failed because of reasons I've already said.

We are here trying to save you money, where as the garage aren't.

It is upto you which course of action you want to take but you'll end up reading the whole of this post again after spending lots of money and think, oh, they're not all c**s after all.

These injectors with over 100k on them were they from the vehicle you were working on or from somewhere else? a donor vehicle perhaps, can't think why you'd re learn injectors from the original vehicle unless the ecu had been replaced. genuine prv, pressures are all correct, injectors have not been touched, original prv was blown so the frv was replaced and pressure is correct and tracking with rpm. and I don't regard anyone as a c**t.

The van went in with a question "What's error 54 consult oasis?" no lights on and everything running fine, the dealer decided to reset all the learns and re learn everything, they failed with the injectors and it came back lumpy with the drive train light on. there was no issue with the van before it went there, a big issue when it came out after being plugged into their oasis system.

[Ml Autos]

I did the learn on the pump, no one can fathom why the dealer tried to learn the injectors! There is no fault except the injectors can't be learned in, simply because they were done when fitted and over the years tolerances have changed, that's why the ecu won't allow the codes to be re learned, it knows the codes are no longer valid due the the added mileage, they all need to be re-encoded or replaced, they can only be re-encoded on a delphi machine and would probably need to be reconditioned to do it, what would be the point in learning injectors on the original codes if they've done substantial mileage? they'd be worn past the code's spec. So it makes sense, even if they were learned in now they'd be out of tolerance fom the time they were encoded, thus the ECU won't accept a re learn on them, and they cant be erased and even if they could and then learned in the tolerances relating to the codes on them are well and truly past their sell by date so it would be miles out anyway. the dealership unlearned the injectors now the ecu wont accept a new learn and for obvious reasons,
they were working fine up to the point the dealership unlearned them now the ecu has no idea of tolerances or wear on the injectors so it throws a light and runs rough.

It was running fine with no light on when I took it to the dealerhip, they said they'll contact Ford to see what they're prepared to do about it, but Ford didn't screw it up, neither did I, the dealership did, so once again, who should pay to sort this out

Ok. give us a reading of fuel pressure at idle, reading of fuel corrections.
try to do ppi yourself. sometimes it takes couple of attempts.

"You can't learn in the existing injectors, the learn process can only be done with injectors after they or the ecu has been replaced!
BUULSHIT

So every garage that has looked at this and said the same is wrong, that's 3 garages one of which is a diesel specialist doing nothing but diesels, and you're right? let's look at the logic of learning in the original injectors which may have done 130,000 miles since they were fitted, the learn process on injectors is a one shot process simply because when they are fitted the codes tell the ecu the parameters, over the years and miles the ecu compensates for wear so here we are trying to learn injectors as if they're new but with up to 130k on them, would the parameters still be accurate after that sort of use and wear? no! that's why the ecu is forbidden by it's own software to re-learn injectors, it makes perfect sense, The socks you wore at 6 years old wont fit you as a adult will they so why try? and before shouting profanities show me some proof that these experts are wrong and you're right.

I wouldn say anything else simply because im doing PPI 3 times a week at least And injectors seen miles. So you want to say if 1 injector is leaking we have to replace all 4 just because they over 200k although work fine.
As i already said sometimes it takes a few attempts. There are other factors like a blown copper washer between an injector and cylinder head etc.
P.S. That pressure reading and quantity corrections are still unknown.
P.P.S. Take it back to the dealer and say the light was not there when i left my van.

[MartinWillmott]

Like I said, no fault on it when I took it in, running and starting perfectly, all learns ok except the pump, no lights, they reset the learns, tried to relearn everything and totally screwed it up. I have had something of an admission from them but I suspect they're going to try and make me pay for their f**k up. all that needed doing was the pump learn which they did but then it came back in this state.

In fact when I spoke to their engineer he said the pilot learn had failed, I said which one is the pilot learn and he said the pump! obviously it wasn't, it was the injectors which didn't need doing and shouldn't have been attempted. he said he'd tried it 8 times!

[boltondigger]

Great thread

[Jim Archer]

So if the injector learn failed, what do you think this might tell you?

The system has logged that the fuel delivery does not fall within it's allowable range whilst undergoing it's internal calibration.

This could be worn injectors, SCV not able to maintain pump pressure, PRV lifting early or late, fuel filter restricted, etc.

Jim

[MartinWillmott]

bambi mk 1, who's not listening? I don't think comments like that are helpful!