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Starting problem

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Re: Starting problem

Postby the dutch guy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:01 am

on the top one it looks like the fuel pressure (green) has pegged the needle. i would think the sensor is having that the time of the month.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby Mikexx » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:24 am

the dutch guy wrote:on the top one it looks like the fuel pressure (green) has pegged the needle. i would think the sensor is having that the time of the month.


I'm struggling to understand what you mean.

If the pressure is OTT, then wouldn't it be easy to start from a bit of over fuelling?
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Re: Starting problem

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:38 am

Mikexx wrote:
the dutch guy wrote:on the top one it looks like the fuel pressure (green) has pegged the needle. i would think the sensor is having that the time of the month.


I'm struggling to understand what you mean.

If the pressure is OTT, then wouldn't it be easy to start from a bit of over fuelling?


The "Green" trace is actually the "Desired" fuel rail pressure, (38,500kpa ~5,582psi), the "Red" is the actual recorded pressure, (49560kpa ~7,186psi). Looks like they're quite a ways apart. I wonder if the PCM will disable the injector pulse if the pressure isn't within a specified range of the desired pressure.?? :?

Are you able to do an injector pulse trace whilst trying to start??...Might show something.

Looks like she may need a pump, pilot and injector learn done.

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Re: Starting problem

Postby Mikexx » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:31 am

knobby1 wrote:
The "Green" trace is actually the "Desired" fuel rail pressure, (38,500kpa ~5,582psi), the "Red" is the actual recorded pressure, (49560kpa ~7,186psi). Looks like they're quite a ways apart. I wonder if the PCM will disable the injector pulse if the pressure isn't within a specified range of the desired pressure.?? :?

Are you able to do an injector pulse trace whilst trying to start??...Might show something.

Looks like she may need a pump, pilot and injector learn done.

Lord Knobrot.


Thanks, I will try tomorrow. Starting is very variable, sometimes I can try 2 or 3 times, others first go. Please bear with me.

I have the Forscan software which I believe can initiate these learns?

The engine will try and fire, but not sufficiently to pickup to idle. Doesn't that suggest it's not disabling the injector pulse?
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Re: Starting problem

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:41 am

Mikexx wrote:Thanks, I will try tomorrow. Starting is very variable, sometimes I can try 2 or 3 times, others first go. Please bear with me.
I have the Forscan software which I believe can initiate these learns?
The engine will try and fire, but not sufficiently to pickup to idle. Doesn't that suggest it's not disabling the injector pulse?


If the engine is trying to fire and then stops, it "may" be the PCM dropping the pulse to the injectors after the fuel rail pressure goes too high.

This is the way I "think" it may be happening.....The rail pressure can only increase if the engine is turning over and hence the pump is also turning, once the pressure gets to the "correct range", the PCM will initiate a pulse to the injectors and she'll start to fire, once the pressure rises above a certain preset level, the PCM might be cutting the pulse to protect the system.. hence why she's cutting out... :?

Have you re-checked the PRV to make sure it's still in one piece?? Although I suspect it may be ok if your rail pressure is higher than desired. Won't hurt to check though..!

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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Starting problem

Postby Mikexx » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:56 am

knobby1 wrote:
If the engine is trying to fire and then stops, it "may" be the PCM dropping the pulse to the injectors after the fuel rail pressure goes too high.

This is the way I "think" it may be happening.....The rail pressure can only increase if the engine is turning over and hence the pump is also turning, once the pressure gets to the "correct range", the PCM will initiate a pulse to the injectors and she'll start to fire, once the pressure rises above a certain preset level, the PCM might be cutting the pulse to protect the system.. hence why she's cutting out... :?

Have you re-checked the PRV to make sure it's still in one piece?? Although I suspect it may be ok if your rail pressure is higher than desired. Won't hurt to check though..!

Lord Knobrot


It doesn't stop, just needs the starter to assist the firing until it can turn under its own power.

I haven't checked the PRV. There aren't any codes related to pressure.

If I take it off, what am I looking for?

It's late and I'm flailing, I'll have a look when I have the chance at what I need to do.

Many thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:36 am

Mikexx wrote:It doesn't stop, just needs the starter to assist the firing until it can turn under its own power. I haven't checked the PRV. There aren't any codes related to pressure.

If I take it off, what am I looking for? It's late and I'm flailing, I'll have a look when I have the chance at what I need to do.

Many thanks for the feedback.


With the PRV, sometimes they still look fine but the spring inside may be broken....other times the whole thing will be in pieces.....But since your rail pressure is still high-ish, I suspect it's still ok. The genuine ones usually have a thin washer, the "non-genuine" ones often have a thicker aluminium washer.

If you can do the pump, pilot and injector learns via Forscan, that may help. Also, doing an injector leak-off check first will give a good idea of injector health, if they fail miserably you're wasting your time doing anything else.

Can you tell me what oil you're using in the engine please??

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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Starting problem

Postby Mikexx » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:02 am

knobby1 wrote:With the PRV, sometimes they still look fine but the spring inside may be broken....other times the whole thing will be in pieces.....But since your rail pressure is still high-ish, I suspect it's still ok. The genuine ones usually have a thin washer, the "non-genuine" ones often have a thicker aluminium washer.

If you can do the pump, pilot and injector learns via Forscan, that may help. Also, doing an injector leak-off check first will give a good idea of injector health, if they fail miserably you're wasting your time doing anything else.

Can you tell me what oil you're using in the engine please??

Lord Knobrot.


The rest of the time it runs fine, no hint of a problem so thought it is unlikely to be a PRV with a high pressure, but then I'm not familiar with high pressure rail systems and more familiar with old CAV pumps.

I'm using 5/40 fully synthetic, is that an issue? I am aware the spec is for 3/30.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:52 pm

Mikexx wrote:The rest of the time it runs fine, no hint of a problem so thought it is unlikely to be a PRV with a high pressure, but then I'm not familiar with high pressure rail systems and more familiar with old CAV pumps. I'm using 5/40 fully synthetic, is that an issue? I am aware the spec is for 3/30.


Fair enough, if she's running ok otherwise I suspect a good set of learns may have you sorted.

With the oil...: Some machines had issues in cooler/cold weather if the oil was a thicker grade than the 5W30 specified. I got caught out with this too when I didn't know any better, I unknowingly put some nice 20W50 oil in mine during a service after I first bought it :oops: :roll: . With the thicker oil and when the weather is cooler or cold, the engine would struggle to get up to the nominal ~800rpm required when started and would sit down at ~650-700rpm for several seconds, the PCM would see this as a fail and shut the engine down...after several start attempts she would just make it to the 800rpm and it would be fine for the rest of the day.....till the following morning where it would all happen again.

I tore my hair out with this until some nice chap on here mentioned it...I changed the oil to 5W30 and it instantly fixed my poor starting issue. Here in Australia where our climate is fairly warm compared to the UK, we can get away with 10W40 oil and still be fine, I've been using Nulon full synthetic 10W40 ever since without issue.

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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Starting problem

Postby Mikexx » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:31 pm

I replaced the batteries and starting became a little easier. It can still be hesitant when cold but starts easily when hot.

During this process, using Forscan, I reset the ECU with the idea I could do a relearn.

The pump relearn was fine but the Injector Pilot Correction Learn was not, where I could get to stage 3 and it would fail.

On previous advice I replaced the PRV, SCV sensor and the FRP sensors.

I did a pump learn, then a Injector Pilot Correction Learn and all seemed to be fine, I got to stage 5, and after going back to stage 1 it stalled. I've tried numerous times bit I can only get the the learn first Stage 4 before I get an error.

During this time I noted the injectors had different correction factors to those programmed. These are now programmed in though not sure if they make a whole lot of difference.

Whilst its drivable, can anyone suggest a way forward?
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Re: Starting problem

Postby v8dave » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:02 pm

I'd suggest the next test is a leak-off test on the injectors.

Have a look at these two threads if you don't have access to a leak-off test set.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=161948&p=1370805&hilit=leakoff+test#p1370805
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=176075&hilit=leak+off+test#p1499078

There probably worth a read anyway.

I've not tried Forscan for the pump learns as I have ids that works OK, do you get an error code from Forscan when the learn fails?
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: Starting problem

Postby Mikexx » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:33 pm

v8dave wrote:I'd suggest the next test is a leak-off test on the injectors.

Have a look at these two threads if you don't have access to a leak-off test set.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=161948&p=1370805&hilit=leakoff+test#p1370805
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=176075&hilit=leak+off+test#p1499078

There probably worth a read anyway.

I've not tried Forscan for the pump learns as I have ids that works OK, do you get an error code from Forscan when the learn fails?


Thanks for the ideas, I've heard of a leak off test but never carried one out.

The saved log is:
(OK) [21:36:42.987] Fuel Injector Pilot Correction Learn has been started
(OK) [21:37:00.023] Please wait...10 seconds
(WARN) [21:37:10.070] Executing service procedure...
(OK) [21:37:19.094] Currently learning pressure point 1
(OK) [21:37:21.095] Currently learning pressure point 2
(OK) [21:37:33.140] Currently learning pressure point 3
(OK) [21:37:51.201] Currently learning pressure point 4
(ERR) [21:37:53.201] Initialization Failure
(ERR) [21:37:53.201] Error Code: 80
(ERR) [21:37:53.201] The vehicle conditions are incorrect: The idle speed is outside test limits. Allow the engine to idle
(OK) [21:38:04.036] Please wait...120 seconds
(WARN) [21:40:23.411] Resetting adaptive values

It's a little confusing as "learning pressure point 4" should be at raised revs. In my case, on this occasion, they went too high.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby v8dave » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:03 pm

I had similar problems in 2014 and got error code 88 from the injector learn process.
I've found a lot of info on the denso injection system since but never a proper list of the process error codes for the injector learn.

My problem was worn out injectors.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: Starting problem

Postby Mikexx » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:07 pm

v8dave wrote:I'd suggest the next test is a leak-off test on the injectors.

Have a look at these two threads if you don't have access to a leak-off test set.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=161948&p=1370805&hilit=leakoff+test#p1370805
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=176075&hilit=leak+off+test#p1499078

There probably worth a read anyway.

I've not tried Forscan for the pump learns as I have ids that works OK, do you get an error code from Forscan when the learn fails?


I carried out a leak test, and over a very approx 3 minutes I got between 35 and 45ml of diesel, which I believe implies I have 4 good injectors.

Not sure what to do next.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby v8dave » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:42 pm

If that was 3 minutes at idle then they are looking a bit high as we think the range is 25-40ml and all within 10%.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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