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MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a bit

Transit Mk6 & Mk7 Forum. All Transits 2000 - 2013

Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:00 pm

Thanks andz327 - Checked that and looks OK, not touching and no wear but can see where you mean.

Ive had basic EML327 reader on it today and i get NO codes for Stored, Pending, Permanent.
But i get a pile of number for OTHER.? (whats OTHER relate to.?)
this is what i get.

U3F251A
P2F1293
P281294
P280000
P251A00
P129300 (is this injectors.?)
P129400
P000000
P040472 (this shows when reading first thing AM before starting, not there once started vehicle - StuckOpen EGR.?! or is it just in open position)
P062B16 (sometimes doesnt show, is this injectors!)
P010036 (disappeared once started once)


I was thinking of putting a secondhand fuel pump on to see if it was that (secondhand was about £50 and to have mine tested here was 140euro.!), but also now thinking of giving up and going to ford to read and diagnose. I originally thought egr because id had one fail previously.

Anyone familiar with latest bit of info above and have any thoughts.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:41 pm

HI anyone/everyone.

Whats the most common things that make Injectors fail on these mk7s, is Low pressure from the pump high up on the list.? Can EGR effect injectors badly.

Ive had injectors, if i get new fuel pump and clean system out is there something else that can send both these out again and cost the same again very shortly down the road. (guess poor fuel and contamination would, but anything else that can be checked)
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby knobby1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:48 pm

redbox4wheels wrote:Thanks andz327 - Checked that and looks OK, not touching and no wear but can see where you mean.

Ive had basic EML327 reader on it today and i get NO codes for Stored, Pending, Permanent.
But i get a pile of number for OTHER.? (whats OTHER relate to.?)
this is what i get.

U3F251A
P2F1293
P281294
P280000
P251A00
P129300 (is this injectors.?)
P129400
P000000
P040472 (this shows when reading first thing AM before starting, not there once started vehicle - StuckOpen EGR.?! or is it just in open position)
P062B16 (sometimes doesnt show, is this injectors!)
P010036 (disappeared once started once)


I was thinking of putting a secondhand fuel pump on to see if it was that (secondhand was about £50 and to have mine tested here was 140euro.!), but also now thinking of giving up and going to ford to read and diagnose. I originally thought egr because id had one fail previously.

Anyone familiar with latest bit of info above and have any thoughts.


The codes you have quoted don't make any sense, there's too many numbers in them....however P1293 & P1294 point to injector/wiring issue...I'd be checking all the injector looms back to the PCM for breaks/continuity. The injectors themselves don't usually fail electrically, they just wear out mechanically. The TDCi pumps rarely fail....

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:02 pm

knobby1 wrote:
redbox4wheels wrote:Thanks andz327 - Checked that and looks OK, not touching and no wear but can see where you mean.

Ive had basic EML327 reader on it today and i get NO codes for Stored, Pending, Permanent.
But i get a pile of number for OTHER.? (whats OTHER relate to.?)
this is what i get.

U3F251A
P2F1293
P281294
P280000
P251A00
P129300 (is this injectors.?)
P129400
P000000
P040472 (this shows when reading first thing AM before starting, not there once started vehicle - StuckOpen EGR.?! or is it just in open position)
P062B16 (sometimes doesnt show, is this injectors!)
P010036 (disappeared once started once)


I was thinking of putting a secondhand fuel pump on to see if it was that (secondhand was about £50 and to have mine tested here was 140euro.!), but also now thinking of giving up and going to ford to read and diagnose. I originally thought egr because id had one fail previously.

Anyone familiar with latest bit of info above and have any thoughts.


The codes you have quoted don't make any sense, there's too many numbers in them....however P1293 & P1294 point to injector/wiring issue...I'd be checking all the injector looms back to the PCM for breaks/continuity. The injectors themselves don't usually fail electrically, they just wear out mechanically. The TDCi pumps rarely fail....

Lord Knobrot



i thought that, it was read with app called car scanner that gave all those, some sounded sort of relevant like P062B16 (internal control modual fuel injector) and P04047 EGR stuck open.

Also tried another app earlier and it had error codes of only, P1293 and P1294 (and P251A).

Will check wiring as best i can tomorrow am, but think it maybe visual inspection only for my abilities on that.
Thinking checking the washers and o rings also for the return side of them causing the pressure drop and cutting out

thanks again for all tips.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby knobby1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:30 pm

redbox4wheels wrote:i thought that, it was read with app called car scanner that gave all those, some sounded sort of relevant like P062B16 (internal control modual fuel injector) and P04047 EGR stuck open. Also tried another app earlier and it had error codes of only, P1293 and P1294 (and P251A).
Will check wiring as best i can tomorrow am, but think it maybe visual inspection only for my abilities on that.
Thinking checking the washers and o rings also for the return side of them causing the pressure drop and cutting out thanks again for all tips.


Try Forscan with your ELM327, we find it works well and will show real-time rail pressures etc...

http://www.forscan.org/download.html

The washers and "O"rings won't cause lack of pressure at the injectors. Fuel rail pressure drop could be the PRV dead but I think you've looked at that. The PCM will cut power to the injectors if the rail pressure drops too low or the pressure doesn't rise enough during cranking...hence the non-start.

I wonder if the pressure/temp sensor on the end of the rail is faulty..??

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:41 pm

knobby1 wrote:
redbox4wheels wrote:i thought that, it was read with app called car scanner that gave all those, some sounded sort of relevant like P062B16 (internal control modual fuel injector) and P04047 EGR stuck open. Also tried another app earlier and it had error codes of only, P1293 and P1294 (and P251A).
Will check wiring as best i can tomorrow am, but think it maybe visual inspection only for my abilities on that.
Thinking checking the washers and o rings also for the return side of them causing the pressure drop and cutting out thanks again for all tips.


Try Forscan with your ELM327, we find it works well and will show real-time rail pressures etc...

http://www.forscan.org/download.html

The washers and "O"rings won't cause lack of pressure at the injectors. Fuel rail pressure drop could be the PRV dead but I think you've looked at that. The PCM will cut power to the injectors if the rail pressure drops too low or the pressure doesn't rise enough during cranking...hence the non-start.

I wonder if the pressure/temp sensor on the end of the rail is faulty..??

Lord Knobrot



yes was just this second wondering about the Pressure/temp sensor on end of rail, for 20quid i hope it is that.
What am i looking for on Rail pressures, i recall it was hovering around 19-23,000 ish on idle (after getting sarted) and goes upto maybe 70,000 giving it 2500rpm standing still.

I suppose i really need to look at this on a cold start when it fails and watch as it fails. Ill try tomorrow am, beause it will start now as it was started a few hours back. it needs overnight to reset itself to fail on the first start.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby v8dave » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:49 pm

If you only look at the first 5 characters of those codes then they are sensible.
The two extra characters might be allowed by the international standard the specifies that first five for the manufacturer to convey extra information.

The BIG problem looking the codes up on the internet is that the same numbers are used for petrol and diesel engines.

If these codes are at initial switch on rather than stored then they are probably no help in diagnosing your problem.

P0100 is a generic mass flow sensor code, getting that while the engine is not running is to be expected.
P062B is an injection fault, but only ford ids is likely to point you at what to check because only ford know what their 16 code means.
P0404 is an egr code but like the mass flow code getting it before engine starts is expected, egr flow/position is calculated based on the mass flow and while that sensor value is erroneous the egr can not be set properly.
P0000 is not a valid code, simples.
P1xxx numbers are manufacturer specific.
P1294 and P1293 could be wiring issues on the injector feeds. These could be four individually wired to each injector with the power and earth a twisted pairs ( twisted pairs are electrically better for the switched power involved ) or could be paired earths with injectors 1&4 and 2&3 as the pairs.
P251A is your pto switch is off, unless you have a power take off I'd suggest you need to update your ecu calibration.
P2800 refers to the drive select switch on automatics but could be your in reverse.
P2812 is also for automatic transmissions and should mean no gearbox oil pressure.
P2F12 has the internet stumped but could be a misread of P1293
Uxxxx codes are Network errors, it could be a problem on the vehicle or with the code reader.


I'd suggest the following checks before buying more parts.
Battery drop test.
Battery terminals clean and secure.
Battery earth good.
Starter motor terminals clean and secure.
Cables at jump start point by engine bay fuse box clean and secure.
Relays and fuses in the engine fuse box clean and secure.
Injector plugs clean and secure.
ECU plugs clean and secure, on a mk 7 these are under an anti-tamper cover which slides off after you drill out the remains of a shear bolt.
ECU Earth, this is on the inner wing behind the ecu.
Fuel filter full of fuel before attempting to start first time in the day.

I appreciate you might have done some of these yourself, don't trust that anyone else has.

If everything is good then do a power test on each injector circuit wire, you'll need a copy of the wiring diagram - I can give you that :)
A source of power and a 5 watt light bulb.
You power the light bulb through the wire you are testing, if it is not as bright as when power direct from the power source then the wire is a problem.
Don't bother with a multimeter check of resistance, it does not use as much power as the injector takes to open it. Damaged wires restrict power.

HTH

Just seen the messages while i've been typing.

The return pipework will be at less than air pressure while the engine is running, air leaks in rather than fuel leaking out.
The soft injector return coupling o rings are very easy to damaged when pushing the couplings into the injectors, you need to grease them to fit them.

The fuel pressure sensor is on the fuel rail, the fuel temperature sensor is on the fuel pump.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:13 pm

v8dave wrote:If you only look at the first 5 characters of those codes then they are sensible.
The two extra characters might be allowed by the international standard the specifies that first five for the manufacturer to convey extra information.

The BIG problem looking the codes up on the internet is that the same numbers are used for petrol and diesel engines.

If these codes are at initial switch on rather than stored then they are probably no help in diagnosing your problem.

P0100 is a generic mass flow sensor code, getting that while the engine is not running is to be expected.
P062B is an injection fault, but only ford ids is likely to point you at what to check because only ford know what their 16 code means.
P0404 is an egr code but like the mass flow code getting it before engine starts is expected, egr flow/position is calculated based on the mass flow and while that sensor value is erroneous the egr can not be set properly.
P0000 is not a valid code, simples.
P1xxx numbers are manufacturer specific.
P1294 and P1293 could be wiring issues on the injector feeds. These could be four individually wired to each injector with the power and earth a twisted pairs ( twisted pairs are electrically better for the switched power involved ) or could be paired earths with injectors 1&4 and 2&3 as the pairs.
P251A is your pto switch is off, unless you have a power take off I'd suggest you need to update your ecu calibration.
P2800 refers to the drive select switch on automatics but could be your in reverse.
P2812 is also for automatic transmissions and should mean no gearbox oil pressure.
P2F12 has the internet stumped but could be a misread of P1293
Uxxxx codes are Network errors, it could be a problem on the vehicle or with the code reader.


I'd suggest the following checks before buying more parts.
Battery drop test.
Battery terminals clean and secure.
Battery earth good.
Starter motor terminals clean and secure.
Cables at jump start point by engine bay fuse box clean and secure.
Relays and fuses in the engine fuse box clean and secure.
Injector plugs clean and secure.
ECU plugs clean and secure, on a mk 7 these are under an anti-tamper cover which slides off after you drill out the remains of a shear bolt.
ECU Earth, this is on the inner wing behind the ecu.
Fuel filter full of fuel before attempting to start first time in the day.

I appreciate you might have done some of these yourself, don't trust that anyone else has.

If everything is good then do a power test on each injector circuit wire, you'll need a copy of the wiring diagram - I can give you that :)
A source of power and a 5 watt light bulb.
You power the light bulb through the wire you are testing, if it is not as bright as when power direct from the power source then the wire is a problem.
Don't bother with a multimeter check of resistance, it does not use as much power as the injector takes to open it. Damaged wires restrict power.

HTH

Just seen the messages while i've been typing.

The return pipework will be at less than air pressure while the engine is running, air leaks in rather than fuel leaking out.
The soft injector return coupling o rings are very easy to damaged when pushing the couplings into the injectors, you need to grease them to fit them.

The fuel pressure sensor is on the fuel rail, the fuel temperature sensor is on the fuel pump.


v8dave - THANKS for the Info.

ive done most on your check list, battery and power all good, new starter motor and visually checked all wires/pipes/connections. Starting is not a problem first thing or once going, its 15seconds after first start (which is easy to start) unless I give it loads of revs it stutters and dies, then wont start for an hour + or so.

ive not check ECU connections yet. and not power tested the injec feed. i have deleted the codes though, and now i cant see them i feel much better. :D but its still the same. i guess the codes will come back later, im leaving it sit till tomorrow am then ill start and fail it by not reving it and read codes again then.

On the Forscan live data on starting this am i had the below.
Rail pressure 20 to 23000 on idle.
when giving it revs it followed quite closely the dial that says desired Rail Pressure.
pumplearn - said LEARNED
Sync - Said YES
CRKREF_F - Said No Fault
SCV - seemed to hover around 37% most the time (amper1.85)

I think my pump must be ok and wont be rushing to replace it just yet, although if damaged i am concerned it will destroy my new injectors.!! (im not driving it at teh moment done about 20miles since injectors changed over 2 weeks)

And i guess the Fuel Pressure sensor on teh fuel rail is OK regards the pressure following closely the desired pressure guage. Shame, i think that may have been one of the easier/cheaper fixes. i may do it anyway, i a hit n hope.

Return pipework. i can only guess id have to just replace in a hit n hope as well. but pressure in teh rail is not dropping and seem stable to desired. so... :?:

i need a :idea: moment.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:05 pm

Q. Can a Pump and Injector learn have varying degrees of quality, ie can different kit do a different job or if its done its done.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby v8dave » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:18 pm

redbox4wheels wrote:Q. Can a Pump and Injector learn have varying degrees of quality, ie can different kit do a different job or if its done its done.

Very good question.

Unfortunately, I don't know the answer.

I do know the following.

The ford vcmii is a computer, ford ids instructs the vcmii to do things to the van.
It can also act as a "pass through" device so ids can do things directly to the van.

The elm 327 is a computer, suitable software instructs the elm to do things to the van.
It can also act as a "pass through" device so the software can do things directly to the van.

Seems to suggest that vcmii is just a glorified elm doesn't it. Actually the vcmii has a few extra trick up it's sleeve, like data logging :)
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby Jamber2166 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:09 pm

It sounds very much like there's a fuel delivery issue. it sounds as though the pump can generate enough pressure to start the van but once it's running the fuel is not keeping up with the engines' demand. A diesel engine requires a very precise fuel delivery as they use a SCV as a throttle, and requires good compression also!

Is the fuel filter good?

You could ask someone with a lab scope, or a garage to do a quick relative compression test by measuring starter current draw with a current clamp around the battery cable. The peaks of the waveform on the scope will show starter current relative to compression pressures; a low peak or peaks would indicate a compression issue on it's respective cylinder. This is much faster than hooking up pressure gauges! You could also disable the fuel supply and listen to how the van cranks. It should sound consistant and even if the compression pressures are good.

The fact that this has happened suddenly suggests that something has 'went'. I would focus on the fuel system and make sure you're getting good fuel delivery and the system is free of air.

Have you plugged in a scan tool and monitored the rail pressures at different RPM ranges? (The pressure should rise as you increase RPM) as the van begins to die? Also, don't just assume that because you've fitted new parts that you haven't been supplied with a faulty one! I've had a few injectors over the years returned as faulty. Only by examining the waveforms on a scope was I able to tell it was bad.

The garage will most likey have a scan tool that is capable of doing the injector pilot learn, SCV learn and the rail pressure valve counter reset, but I'd double check they have the equipment to do the injector coding! I have two high end scan tools and only Ford IDS allows me to code injectors!

By the way, don't go throwing parts at it without first of all diagnosing them. A quick voltage drop on the ignition switch would have ruled that out quicker than it took for you to order another one!
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby v8dave » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:09 pm

Fuel metering and hence throttle control is a combination of injector duty cycle control and fuel rail pressure control.

Ford use the scv in normally open mode.
This means if the electronic control fails the valve stays open, the pump can then overpressure the fuel rail which is why the prv is fitted.
A worn scv will deliver too much fuel if used as a proportional valve but as I think they are only used for on / off control a little leakage is probably tolerated and corrected by the pressure control algorithm.

The start, stall then not restart does sound like air in the fuel system but why does it then start an hour later ?
If the air is still there then it still need priming.

An easy way to stop the ecu injecting fuel is to disconnect the cam position sensor, then the sync is lost and the injectors are not opened. Fuel rail pressure should limit to about 300 bar.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby Jamber2166 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:54 pm

v8dave"The start, stall then not restart does sound like air in the fuel system but why does it then start an hour later ?
If the air is still there then it still need priming.


If there is air in the system then heat within the rail will cause pressure fluctuations that could cause this effect; so temprature would be a factor. Air can be compressed, which would be directly affected by the heat in the rail as it expands and contracts. Also, the air is displacing the fuel! The feedback from the rail sensor may indicate the rail pressure to be fine where air is present!

I would expect to see rail pressure codes if it was so bad, but that would depend if it fell outwith the calibrated spec of sensor and the ecu. Diesels are unforgiving when it comes to fuel metering.

If compression is good, the inputs are good (cam and crank signals etc) then it only leaves fuel as the problem, other than some sort of freak timing issue that's just occured.

It's pointless asking a guy with a £10 code reader to diagnose this kind of complaint. If he's checked the basics then it's time to entrust it to a competent garage.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby v8dave » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:09 am

Jamber2166 wrote:If there is air in the system then heat within the rail will cause pressure fluctuations that could cause this effect; so temprature would be a factor. Air can be compressed, which would be directly affected by the heat in the rail as it expands and contracts. Also, the air is displacing the fuel! The feedback from the rail sensor may indicate the rail pressure to be fine where air is present!

I would expect to see rail pressure codes if it was so bad, but that would depend if it fell outwith the calibrated spec of sensor and the ecu. Diesels are unforgiving when it comes to fuel metering.

If compression is good, the inputs are good (cam and crank signals etc) then it only leaves fuel as the problem, other than some sort of freak timing issue that's just occured.

It's pointless asking a guy with a £10 code reader to diagnose this kind of complaint. If he's checked the basics then it's time to entrust it to a competent garage.

A major problem with our remote diagnosis of faults is that many problems do not generate codes until a drive cycle has been completed.
If the codes are cleared and do not immediately return then the vehicle has to be driven long enough and far enough to complete a cycle before the on board systems record a fault.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:16 pm

Jamber2166 wrote:It sounds very much like there's a fuel delivery issue. it sounds as though the pump can generate enough pressure to start the van but once it's running the fuel is not keeping up with the engines' demand. A diesel engine requires a very precise fuel delivery as they use a SCV as a throttle, and requires good compression also!

Is the fuel filter good?

Yes - NEW

Jamber2166 wrote:You could ask someone with a lab scope, or a garage to do a quick relative compression test by measuring starter current draw with a current clamp around the battery cable. The peaks of the waveform on the scope will show starter current relative to compression pressures; a low peak or peaks would indicate a compression issue on it's respective cylinder. This is much faster than hooking up pressure gauges! You could also disable the fuel supply and listen to how the van cranks. It should sound consistant and even if the compression pressures are good.

yes i think im going to have to get someone to compression test it and check the internals, its a bit smokey, unusal burn smell once temp up. Cranks Good.


Jamber2166 wrote:The fact that this has happened suddenly suggests that something has 'went'. I would focus on the fuel system and make sure you're getting good fuel delivery and the system is free of air.


Didnt happen quickly, once in summer when left for 7 days it happened, then a few more time through autumn when left, getting worse as it got colder. Temp low enough and not used enough now for it to happen every day.

:arrow: I have watched this AM the live data when Starting and it Failing.... It all looks OK, APART from the LOAD DIAL... It starts fine no problem, all rail pressure dials look good, EGR does nothing, the crank/cam SYNC kicks in OK, but then after having run and ticking over FINE/OK for 8 seconds (2seconds after Crank/Cam sync is YES/Done), the LOAD dial goes from a steady 40% upto 75% (this is at idle with no accelerator). The Rail pressure does not go up to keep pressure/engine going to satisfy the needs of the LOAD dial (no idea what or why or where the sudden extra LOAD is required.) it stutters and FAILS, the fuel in and pressure are not enough for the load required.

I can only think (in my numpty way) something gets warm, expands in the cylinders/pistons internals area in first few seconds, excessive friction and wants to jam up to increase load, to point it fails. (is this how load dial is calculated) So then leave it to cool down after it fails but not go completely cold over 2hrs and start up OK, this time keeping running because maybe the oil has got it lubed up. maybe internal oil issue.

im going to seek professional help, i may take the van to a professional garage too.
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