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Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby Jim Archer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:44 pm

Were the cams pinned?

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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby marc1234567 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:01 pm

knobby1 wrote:
marc1234567 wrote:Ate you saying that is what might be trapped? Would pistons hit those? Isn't if just the valves that would make contact with the piston?


No...but if the injectors and glow plugs are still in there, it will have quite a bit of compression, we're talking ~18 or 19:1 compression ratio compared to ~9:1 for a garden variety petrol powered engine.

If the cam timing is correct they can still be quit difficult to turn over by hand.

Lord Knobrot


So , as compression builds it might cause it to become stuck? I guess we could try with longer bar ?
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby marc1234567 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:02 pm

Jim Archer wrote:Were the cams pinned?

Jim

Bits were used to time the cams. Not sure if this is what you mean by pinned.
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby knobby1 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:11 pm

marc1234567 wrote:So , as compression builds it might cause it to become stuck? I guess we could try with longer bar ?


Not stuck as such, but difficult to turn as the compression builds, if you stop & leave it for a few seconds until the pressure slowly leaks out via the rings/valves, it will then turn easier again until the pressure rebuilds, this is normal.

We're not doing something silly like leaving it in gear with handbrake on are we..?? :wink: That'll make it quite hard to turn... I've done this before.. :oops:

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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby marc1234567 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:20 pm

knobby1 wrote:
marc1234567 wrote:So , as compression builds it might cause it to become stuck? I guess we could try with longer bar ?


Not stuck as such, but difficult to turn as the compression builds, if you stop & leave it for a few seconds until the pressure slowly leaks out via the rings/valves, it will then turn easier again until the pressure rebuilds, this is normal.

We're not doing something silly like leaving it in gear with handbrake on are we..?? :wink: That'll make it quite hard to turn... I've done this before.. :oops:

Lord Knobrot


Handbrake is on but not in gear. I didn't turn it myself but it turned for a bit but reached a stopping point as though unable to go further. This was done with a pry bar if I recall. It wasn't that long . I didn't feel myself so unsure if it became suddenly stuck. How long would it take for pressure to leak from rings as you described?

Edit. Sorry I see you saI'd a few seconds.
Last edited by marc1234567 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Previous mk 5 (2000) Luton body (2012-2013)

Mk 6 tddi 2.4 125ps RWD dropwell luton (2018 - present)
Mk 7 tdci 2.2 125ps RWD Luton / taillift (Aug 2021-present)
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby knobby1 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:27 pm

marc1234567 wrote:Handbrake is on but not in gear. I didn't turn it myself but it turned for a bit but reached a stopping point as though unable to go further. This was done with a pry bar if I recall. It wasn't that long . I didn't feel myself so unsure if it became suddenly stuck. How long would it take for pressure to leak from rings as you described?


Pressure should only take a few seconds to bleed off, you can often hear it "hissing" through valve seats and rings, there's no such thing as a "perfect seal" in this context......If she becomes "suddenly stuck" solid, you have problems other than compression build-up. :?

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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby marc1234567 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:37 pm

knobby1 wrote:
marc1234567 wrote:Handbrake is on but not in gear. I didn't turn it myself but it turned for a bit but reached a stopping point as though unable to go further. This was done with a pry bar if I recall. It wasn't that long . I didn't feel myself so unsure if it became suddenly stuck. How long would it take for pressure to leak from rings as you described?


Pressure should only take a few seconds to bleed off, you can often hear it "hissing" through valve seats and rings, there's no such thing as a "perfect seal" in this context......If she becomes "suddenly stuck" solid, you have problems other than compression build-up. :?

Lord Knobrot


So nothing can be obstructing the movement apart from the bent valve?
Previous mk 5 (2000) Luton body (2012-2013)

Mk 6 tddi 2.4 125ps RWD dropwell luton (2018 - present)
Mk 7 tdci 2.2 125ps RWD Luton / taillift (Aug 2021-present)
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby karl » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:00 pm

the valves don't bend :roll:
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby knobby1 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:02 pm

marc1234567 wrote:So nothing can be obstructing the movement apart from the bent valve?


Correct, there's just nothing else in there....but as mentioned many times, these engines just don't bend valves....so if she's locking up..... and the crank, rods and pistons are still where they should be, the cam timing is out..!

There is one silly thing that might catch us out though...I wonder if she's dropped a valve seat or seven..?? :shock: :?

Lord Knobrot
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby marc1234567 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:03 pm

karl wrote:the valves don't bend :roll:

What might be obstructing movement then if the cam followers and bolts securing are in tact?
Previous mk 5 (2000) Luton body (2012-2013)

Mk 6 tddi 2.4 125ps RWD dropwell luton (2018 - present)
Mk 7 tdci 2.2 125ps RWD Luton / taillift (Aug 2021-present)
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby marc1234567 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:08 pm

knobby1 wrote:
marc1234567 wrote:So nothing can be obstructing the movement apart from the bent valve?


Correct, there's just nothing else in there....but as mentioned many times, these engines just don't bend valves....so if she's locking up..... and the crank, rods and pistons are still where they should be, the cam timing is out..!

There is one silly thing that might catch us out though...I wonder if she's dropped a valve seat or seven..?? :shock: :?

Lord Knobrot


OK then. Many thanks. I guess the head has ti come off then. Don't think timing can be wrong as timing pins were used in cam sprockets , flywheel and fuel pump with marks on chain lined up etc.
Previous mk 5 (2000) Luton body (2012-2013)

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Mk 7 tdci 2.2 125ps RWD Luton / taillift (Aug 2021-present)
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby karl » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:14 pm

marc1234567 wrote:
karl wrote:the valves don't bend :roll:

What might be obstructing movement then if the cam followers and bolts securing are in tact?


their might be a problem, but its very very rare :(

if you have no compression the their is one or to things

valves pitted :roll:

valves bent if you used you own head and done the cheap way round to solve the problem

or you haven't timed the engine incorrectly :roll:

i dont know i int doing the job but if i was doing the job i wouldnt be throwing money at a head problem without finding the problems first
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby knobby1 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:20 pm

marc1234567 wrote:OK then. Many thanks. I guess the head has ti come off then.


I think this might be your only option..... "IF" everything else checks out ok. I still think the cam timing needs checked by someone else who knows what they're looking at though....just to make sure before ripping the head off, possibly for no reason. Remember the old carpenters/machinists mantra..."measure twice, cut once". :wink:

Lord Knobrot
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby marc1234567 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 pm

karl wrote:
marc1234567 wrote:
karl wrote:the valves don't bend :roll:

What might be obstructing movement then if the cam followers and bolts securing are in tact?


their might be a problem, but its very very rare :(

if you have no compression the their is one or to things

valves pitted :roll:

valves bent if you used you own head and done the cheap way round to solve the problem

or you haven't timed the engine incorrectly :roll:

i dont know i int doing the job but if i was doing the job i wouldnt be throwing money at a head problem without finding the problems first


I thought head has to be removed to see what is wrong , at this point.
Previous mk 5 (2000) Luton body (2012-2013)

Mk 6 tddi 2.4 125ps RWD dropwell luton (2018 - present)
Mk 7 tdci 2.2 125ps RWD Luton / taillift (Aug 2021-present)
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Re: Broken down won't started suspected timing chain

Postby knobby1 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:33 pm

marc1234567 wrote:I thought head has to be removed to see what is wrong , at this point.


"IF" the cam timing is right and she's still locking up...then yes.

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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