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New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

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New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby supadik » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:26 pm

Hi all.

So here's a weird one. About six months ago I bought an old mk6 Transit 2.0 75ps just so I had a van handy as we're doing up an old house and thought a van would be handy. A few days after I bought it I went to start it and the starter didn't engage so I figured the DMF was on it's way out, so I popped my head under the front and sure enough there was a fairly new starter motor shining away. I did a bit of investigating and found that the early fwd 2.0 75ps mk6's were recalled by Ford to have the DMF replaced with a solid flywheel...so I thought the one I had must have not be done. So during Nov 2017 I whipped off the gearbox and was surprised to find that the old flywheel was indeed a solid one but a 5 inch section of the ring gear teeth had been eaten! So I fitted a new solid flywheel, clutch, slave cylinder and starter motor, I also replaced the ignition barrel as the key was worn.

Everything was fine for a while (maybe a month) then the new starter started doing the same thing...failing to engage some times???? This morning I removed the starter to check it and everything was clean and moving freely. I removed the rubber boot that covers the main shaft as I shouldn't need it with a solid flywheel and refitted the starter, torqued it down and made sure the electrical connections were clean and done up tightly. I reconnected the battery and tried it out and yup it failed to engage again. Since then it's started up fine about 10 times in a row then failed to engage again then started fine on the next attempt.

I'm not sure if I imagined it or not but I "think" I heard the solenoid "misfire", I know that's a daft word to use for a solenoid but it's the best one word description for what I heard. It was as if the electrical connection to the starter was interrupted for a millisecond as the solenoid was mid way through engaging the drive cog. The wife on the other hand said she didn't hear that and that it just made a "wurring" sound.

Due to the original flywheel having damaged teeth and the problem persisting after everything has been replaced I started thinking it maybe an alignment issue. The problem with that theory is that if the starter was misaligned surely it would never engage.

What doesn't help is that being a tight Yorkshireman everything was bought cheap off ebay so there's always the possibility that the new starter or ignition switch is faulty. I guess I'm going to have to check through all of the wiring involved in the starting process as something must have caused the original flywheel's ring gear teeth to have been eaten.

Has anybody else had this problem and solved it or are there any known wiring issues on the mk6 involving in the starter circuit???
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby supadik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:43 pm

Bump
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby richgold » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:33 pm

I had lots of problems with starter motors. I had more than 10 on my van in the nearly 5 years I owned it.
I found buying starters to be hit and miss, I wasnt able to find a reliable source for them. I had 2 on the bounce from the local motor factors that wouldnt work straight out the box, then had another from a different factors that worked no problem.
My advice would be to get another starter from a different source, one you can return it to if it plays up.
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby v8dave » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:57 pm

Are you sure the starter is engaging correctly with the flywheel ?

A lot of cheap starters are generic, often sold as fitting mondeos as well.

Measure where the gear on the starter can move to and where the ring gear is using the motor mounting bolts as your reference.
Maybe the gears only just overlap rather than engaging properly.
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby ford downunder » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:08 pm

Hi mate , the starter problem you have is probably caused by the old flywheel , as the old DMF wears all the little filings end up in your starter motor and that is when all the miss firing starts as you call it , i had the same problem and had to replace my starter , they not a a good design ,but after the new solid flywheel no more probs .hope this is helpfull.
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby v8dave » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:42 pm

ford downunder wrote:Hi mate , the starter problem you have is probably caused by the old flywheel , as the old DMF wears all the little filings end up in your starter motor and that is when all the miss firing starts as you call it , i had the same problem and had to replace my starter , they not a a good design ,but after the new solid flywheel no more probs .hope this is helpfull.

OP fitted a new flywheel in November according to his post.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby ford downunder » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:36 pm

Yeh ok, the new flywheel has been fitted but the damage has already been done to the starter motor , if we replace the starter motor with a new one the warranty is only good for 90 days because of the DMF flywheel problem, and if any filings are found in a new one there is no warranty at all , the starter when its bolted on allows any dust or fibres from the DMF as it wears to fall into the mouth of the starter so as the starter engages it drags all the nasties back into the starter and into the windings which in turn causes contact issues , the DMF is an anti vibration system so you dont get all the transmission vibration through the car as you take off you will know what i mean because you have fitted a solid flywheel , it stops the starter motor failure but you get engine and trans vib through the car, not to bad but just typical old school 4wd , this has been my experience anyway ,Good luck .
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby Punto443 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:16 am

The van does not have, and has never had a dmf!

So I don’t see how it can ever have dmf filings in it?
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby andz327 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:48 am

Are the dowels in place for the starter, sometimes they come out with old starter and not put back in and without the starter wont be aligned properly
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby ford downunder » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:03 am

Yeh ok I just assumed it did my bad
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby supadik » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:37 am

Hi again.

Thanks for the replies, just to clarify the original solid flywheel, clutch, slave cylinder and starter has been replaced with new items. The starters rubber gasket is in place as are the 2 locating dowels. I checked it out yesterday and it has become much worse to the point were I can hold the ignition key in the start position and the starter just spins endlessly without engaging or even attempting to engage except for the odd ping when the cog finally moves on the starter's shaft. If I keep trying it will eventually start up as normal but it has defo become much worse yesterday. I'm thinking it's a fault in the starters solenoid but I'm still not ruling out a wiring issues as I also noticed that the brake reservoir warning light doesn't come on with the other warning lights when you turn the ignition on. It only comes on while the key is in the cranking position which I'm sure is wrong. It's crap weather today but on Monday I'll remove the new starter and refit the original starter and see if it displays the same issue. I don't want to leave the old one on permanently though as the teeth will have seen better days after chewing up the old ring gear. It's a shame the TDCi starters are different as I have one sat on the shelf :(

Before I go can I ask if anyone can confirm the correct operation of the starters engagement process...does the solenoid engage the cog 1st then begin spinning it or do both actions take place at the same time.
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby bigjohnthomas » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:58 am

Bosch starter solenoid
Put a live to the spade and the coil energises pulling the plunger back to engage the gear and connects the battery live to the starter brushes all at once boooom
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby v8dave » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:26 am

The drive gear on the starter should have engaged the flywheel before the power comes on.

These style of starters are fitted to many different fords, as I said earlier you might have a generic one rather that a transit specific one and the gears might not be aligning properly.

ford downunder wrote:Yeh ok I just assumed it did my bad

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mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby bigjohnthomas » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:39 am

They both get power at the same time so how can it engage first ?
Its the same coil that engages the gear that connects the live to the starter brushes
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Re: New starter motor sometimes not engaging to NEW flywheel

Postby bambi mk 1 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:55 am

bigjohnthomas wrote:They both get power at the same time so how can it engage first ?
Its the same coil that engages the gear that connects the live to the starter brushes

There is a gigiling pin up the hole of the solenoid that the plunger tickles when the gear is engaged and then you get blast off :wink:
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