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Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

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Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Tue May 29, 2018 1:14 am

Hello guys iv just bought a mk6 transit recovery truck and i have some issues i could really do with some help or just any input at all really it may be a long post as im remembering things as i go so i apologise i just don't want to miss something that could be relevant.

the speedo and temp gauge don't work so iv been having a look into it and trying to figure out what's at fault. i notice that when i turn the ignition on the temp needle drops slightly so i thought well maybe the sensor is knackered as the gauge itself appears to move i plugged in my OBD2 bluetooth device and connected with torque pro (well tried it wont connect) so i got out my proper wired scanner did a generic scan (just because its normally quicker way to get to live data and it wont connect.

(i should mention many many wires behind the dash have been cut, spliced and replaced mainly around the stereo area and for example 2 relays added which appear to go to the hazard relay... guessing something to do with indicators maybe because it has led rear lights someone added those so they don't flash fast for some reason i am really not sure, also a few ignition wires are cut and replaced.... nothing around the speedo seems to be touched though i think i may take the dash out and get a full view of the wires.... anyway back to the point i wasn't that surprised it wouldn't connect)

i then tried going vehicle specific and surprise surprise it did connect and i could view data so i looked at the temp gauge and turned the engine on and it was around 20C and started to rise i was doing some other bits at the time so i turned the engine off when it got to 30C as the sensor is clearly working to a degree although i will test it properly next time i take the truck out which should be tomorrow, and same with the speed (i didn't move the van at the time so didn't see if the speed changed)

i started searching for new instrument clusters online as i was starting to feel it was possible it was at fault (i also have a dash illumination issue it blows the fuse straight away and same with sidelight fuse so i thought maybe there was a short inside the cluster and could be related... who knows sidelights switch has been tapped into and run to the leds around back of cab and back of the truck by previous owner) and that is when i had a brainwave which i couldn't believe i hadn't realised before.... the truck is a 2005 and it has a analogue cluster.... its my understanding that all July 2003 onwards mk6s are digital?

i also notice that it looks as if the rad has been out at the front or at least the slam panel (rad rubber supports appear to be on top of the panel and i believe they should be under it supporting the rad although i could be wrong) and i am now wondering if this was for an engine swap and they used an early engine and ran into issues and swapped the cluster and probably the wiring loom ect.

my main question is if it does end up that it has a mix match of parts in it is there an easy way to get the gauges to work? currently its blowing my mind just thinking about the amount of possible combinations of parts as i assume speedo probably doesn't work due to it being a 2005 box (maybe) and a pre 2003 cluster and i assume they use different sensors and probably the same with the temp gauge.

i saw that there was a guide on converting from analogue to digital dash and thought that could help shed some light but i cant access it as it says i don't have the required permissions or something like that. i appreciate that it is fairly odd situation to be in and many variables.

at this point i feel i cant even be sure what engine is in it although its so gutless up hill loaded i am confident it is still a 90bhp engine (cruise at 55-60mph hit a fair size incline going east on the a303 and it slows to 45mph) :lol: yes i was annoyed by this... but i am used to my mk7 2.4 140bhp that is probably only ever 2.6 or so tonne total rather than the near on 3.5 the truck is loaded.

anyway any help would be appreciated and i cant wait to find out what kind of circle of hell awaits to get it working as it should again
Thanks
Owen
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Tue May 29, 2018 6:52 pm

It would appear that the sensors are fine using the scanner on live data temperature goes up fine and speed seems accurate enough :/ need to find a way to test the cluster itself ie. check that if i give the speedo wires a signal that should work does it move the speedo or check its getting the signal on the pins anyone know what type of signal i would need is it a pulse ? The cluster is the pre 2003 cluster.
Thanks. Owen
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby Altransit » Wed May 30, 2018 11:30 am

It's too complicated to sort out easily by the sound of it. As you say, a 2005 should have a digital display, and I would think that your electrical problems mainly stem from this incorrect speedo being fitted.

You could also be correct in thinking that an earlier engine has been fitted, so you'll need to find the engine code to confirm what it is, but maybe a few piccies of the engine would help the guys on here to ID it for you. Is there a sticker on the turbo?

I used to drive a LWB 90ps, and never considered it to be that slow, even when loaded, so it could be that you have other problems too :(
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby rotory » Wed May 30, 2018 2:35 pm

I had similar on my Mk6 125bhp. All the instruments would drop to zero, sometimes staying there for days. On one occasion they stayed at 60mph and 2500revs when I was outside with the key in my pocket !.
I did read that there is a faulty voltage regulator on the circuit board inside the cluster. I eventually sent the cluster to Revtronic who fixed it within a couple of days

https://www.revtronic.com/product/ford- ... -problems/

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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby scas » Wed May 30, 2018 4:04 pm

could be many things but its usually just the instrument cluster-take it apart and clean the board usually works, but sometimes i think the board needs resoldered , cleaning them has always worked on any of my mk6s and its a 15 minute job
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04 mk6 2.4 di 115 remapped by martyn
04 mk6 2.4 di 90
05 mk6 2.4 di 115
new 06 mk6 2.4 di 115
new 00 mk6 2.4 di 125
can you see a pattern
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:16 am

Hi guys sorry for the late reply i hadnt seen the replies il try give as much info as i can on what iv found/noticed it may be a long post so i apologize in advance :lol: iv attatched some pictures i believe the turbo is a 90bhp turbo assuming the sticker means 90hp 2.4. i have taken the cluster out and had a little dig around i couldnt see any obvious issues any visible solder i saw looked very solid and clean i dont know if the solder issue is on this type of cluster? As it has the circuit on a flexible material with crimp/friction connections (pinched a few up so they grip tighter) rather than soldered board (i forget what its called il put it down to it being late :lol: ) .

Im yet to get anywere with the issues im trying to go through and remove any added wiring and remove additional spotlights ect and redo the wiring for the beacon as it had household 240v type wiring and got warm/hot when used even for small amount of time. I have noticed that someone has tapped a wire into a wire on the light switch which goes off to lots of small lights around the back of the cab so i assume its the sidelight wire i believe it also feeds the led rear lights (if i cant sort the issue i will have to re route this as for some strange reason they routed it out the front of the cab around a pipe in the engine down past the exhaust skimming it in places iv checkes its not melted at all and then along the exhaust hangers and around some other bits to the back of the truck, the mind boggles as to why they wouldnt go out of the hole they used at the back of the cab to feed the lights around the cab but hey) so maybe this is the cause of the sidelight fuse blowing (i think i mentioned this in the original post) or maybe its done as a result of the issue to get around it i will test it without the tapped in wire when i know i wont need to use the truck and have time to play with it. Im trying to go through it methodically although i assume some things were done for a specific reason that im sure will become apparent when i remove them like the 2 extra relays that appear to come off the hazard relay im hoping they are for the towbar electrics but at this point il be suprised if they are even connected.

I assume alot of wiring must have been changed as the early speedometer uses different connections to the later digital ones from what iv seen online

Regarding the lack of power loaded i assume being a 90hp truck its not going to be storming along when basicly at full weight but it does seem quite slow loaded dropping a fair amount of speed on hilly sections but when nothing is on the back it pulls very well in my opinion. Also engine seems like its screaming at 60mph but iv no idea what revs actually are i will try and find out at some point.

worringly i was driving in convoy with my business partner in the truck and him in the mk7 and i was sticking to the satnavs indicated 60mph and he recons i was doing 70 according to the mk7 which iv always found to be fairly on par with satnav speeds when im driving that so would like to fix the speedo issue soon to avoid a speeding fine :lol: think i may have to bite the bullet and buy a used speedo and try that.

Will any analouge Mk6 speedo work fine i notice some say 150mph some say 130mph some have rev counters (current one dosnt) if i get one with rev counter will that just work? If they arnt all compatible with each other then maybe this one isnt correct for the van and it will be all fun and games from there im sure :lol:

Im assuming the current speedometer worked at some point as the mot history shows a drop in milage which i assume is the time they were changed then the milage increased for a few years and then stopped going up... Although i could be wrong ofcourse... In a way i hope im wrong as the first milage on the online mots (2008) is 173odd thousand miles and the next ones are 83k 89k 98k ect increasing untill the milage its on now 126k soo god alone knows what its actually done maybe the 2008 was a missreading as should have been 73k but i doubt it :lol:

Any help/advice will be appreciated
Owen.
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby bambi mk 1 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:07 am

You have a mongrel :shock: That dash will not work with the engine loom that is fitted to the engine.
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:27 am

hi can you tell me why? is it the 2005 engine and bay loom? just wondering as it looks as though the wiring loom has been changed as i found a socket still on the 10mm that holds on the wiring connector under the scuttle pannel and as i say it appears the clocks have worked at some point although i have no real proof but just going off old mots milages. im not clued up enough on mk6 trannys to know which bits should and should not be fitted to this truck from factory and which are pre 2003.

thanks
Owen
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:43 pm

if it is the original 2005 engine and wiring loom in the bay then i would be interested in putting the post 2003 wiring loom back into the cab and the digital dash back in but i dont know how many varients of the wiring loom there are and how i tell which i need ect i will try and get pics of the ecu and other bits so hopefully someone can tell me if that has been changed ect.
Again thanks for any info
Owen
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:32 pm

Looking at on some software and looks like one of the pins on the temp sensor and speedometer are linked in some way so i shall check these also but i doubt that is the issue as i get readings on the obd scanner but worth a look i guess. iv checked all 3 engine codes that relate to 90bhp engines in all the years of mk6 and all the pinouts relating to temp and speed seem to be identical before and up to the ecu which is all that this particular software shows.(i appreciate a digital dash would work off canbus with far less wires and different outputs from ecu)
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby paul2012 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 pm

Possibly pre 2003 engine complete with wiring looms (Engine sub loom, Engine bay loom, Dash loom with PCM & Cluster)
- Due to previous pump or engine failure.

Then........

Replacement Pump with PCM from a post 2003 van fitted, due to previous one failed.
- Resulting in analogue cluster not working :?: :?: :wink:

The only way to find out. Find someone local that has Ford IDS & plug it in.
Generic code readers/scanner as useless on mk6's as the are NOT ODBII compliant :!:

***NOTE***

Transit mk6's were never equipped with CANBUS. They use SCP (Standard Corporate Protocol, SAE J1850 PWM - pins 2 & 10 at DLC)
Used for communications between instrument cluster & PCM on mk6 from 2003-2006 :wink:
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:49 pm

paul2012 thanks for the information yes i think you could be right on the mix of bits being installed i will try get some pictures or part numbers of things and if i cant then hopefully someone can identify which parts are from what year (i have also noticed the ignition key is different from the rest of the locks) if it ends up that it has got post 2003 pump and pcm is it just a case of putting digi dash and dash loom back in or is it far more complicated than that? The fuel gauge still works i dont remember if i mentioned that before, Which is great news :lol:

Ah ok i only called it canbus as i saw the wires labeled CAN-L and CAN-H from the clocks on one of the diagrams but good to know. Scanner im using to see the speeds and temps is an autel mot pro (not the best but not the cheapest) which does show readings that seem accurate from the sensors. i did originally try my bluetooth obd but of course that didn't connect i hadnt thought about it not being obd compliant at the time just assumed like the rest of the wiring it was probably tampered with lol (untill i tried the autel). I would ideally like to get it on ids though at some point always best to use specific manufacturers software.

Thanks again
Owen
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby bambi mk 1 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:40 pm

Looks like you have the correct engine and engine loom for year :wink: I would double check your chassis no matches the vin plate :shock: as you have pre 03 dash clocks .
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:06 pm

hello guys been a while but iv just replaced the instrument cluster for another with same part numbers off ebay and it still dosnt work... (maybe thats the issue for all i know someone had an issue got a new different cluster and it now dosnt have speedo and temp gauge because its a wrong cluster altho im sure i checked the ford catalouge online and it seemed the deisels use the same cluster to 2003 for the non tachometer variant anyway) what do i need to check to know if i have compatible parts in the vehicle to have it work where are engine numbers normally located is it at the back near the bellhousing end? And location of any parts i might need to check part numbers on. Would the speedo stop working if the temp sender went bad? Sounds random just i seem to remember when i looked at the wiring diagram a while back that the speedo and temp sender where linked somehow iv not looked in a while.

Really just want to get it sorted now when i look at the vss on my autel scanner it shows a speed i havnt compared it to gps or anything but it certainly seems right so i assume the ecu is getting the correct signal so i kind of doubt that there is a problem that end(although as im writing this i remember that the temperature was displayed on the scanner aswell so that probably rules out the faulty sender part in the last paragraph...) i dont think there has been a thachograph fitted at any point altho i couldnt confirm this for sure obviously but theres certainly not one now. I understand from what iv read online that there are link wires if there is or isnt a thachograph i dont remember which way round now. Any info that will help id like to know which bits i need to identify and then decide which route to go down... ie is it easier to replace the dash loom back to digi dash buy a digi dash get it working that way or something to make the analouge dash work i guess next on the list is continuity test the wires and check for a signal at the plugs for the instrument cluster (a pinout for the cluster would be great aswell as im sure last i checked i didnt have a decent pinout for that. its the pre 2003 2 connecter wiring and cluster)

any help appreciated before i burn it with fire :D :cry:
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Re: Non working speedo and temp gauge on mk6 2.4 90bhp

Postby owenmk7 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:23 am

Well i got desperate and tapped into the wire going from the speed sensor to the ecu and ran it to the speedometer directly according to the speedo i was doing 65mph across the carpark when i was doing more like 15.
So i guess the ecu changes the signal before it goes to the clocks but it kind of suggests it is the ecu not outputting the signal as it appears to be receiving once (as i say on my autel scanner it shows roughly correct speed when i pull the data up on that soi was already confident it was getting a signal)

The last thing i will check is that if i tap into the wire coming out the ecu before it loops into the plug where it enters the cab theres no signal (ie tap in just as it comes out the ecu) if this is the case i guess it either needs re-programing to output the signal for the analouge clocks which i guess will need fords software (ids?)

Thanks. Owen
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