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Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:09 pm

v8dave wrote:Thank you for taking the time to summarise the vast array of amateur research on the use of vegetable oil.

As far as I'm concerned the use of any fuel in an engine produces 'carbon' emissions, the only difference between the fuels is the timescale over with the carbon has been accumulated.
Many organisations involved in campaigning to protect the environment are against the replacement of conventional diesel with biodiesel because of the intensive agricultural effort required for production.

UK duty payable is governed primarily be HMRC regulations, it will take some time for me to read them and the regulations they reference.



Couple more points, is a good discussion about renewable fuels.
Remember that Herr Rudulph designed the first diesels to run on either petroleum diesel or vegetable oil: it’s not a new idea.
And again, looking at the big picture, we don’t have an unlimited supply of oil: we’re forced to produce from more severe environments to meet demand. So that’s more offshore, deeper offshore, and further North (and South). Or else fracking, and tarsands. All have environmental issues, and the risks of spills etc increases.

In terms of reducing carbon footprint you are without question better to burn bio-derived fuel than fossil fuels. Even conversion from coal to oil releases the carbon. It’s not correct to say the only difference in carbon emissions is the time scale. For plant based systems, the plants grow, take in carbon dioxide, release oxygen, then die off, releasing the carbon then. Which is taken in by other plants.

For fossil fuels, we aren’t making any more fossil fuels/coal anymore: it’s all been done. So anything you dig up/pumpout and burn adds directly to the carbon emissions. It doesn’t come back. Only if you make a conscious sequestration effort can you get it back. And these processes are fairly energy hungry, what do you use to drive them? Nuclear power?? Not solar/wind power, that’s all ear marked to replace the dirty coal thay’s being burned..... I’m ok with using nukes to do it, but most greens are scared of them.

As far as “amateur research”, well i can give you academic papers if you want.
In general, carbon emissions tend to decrease, even tking into account most veggie fuels have slightly lower energy content, and sulphur emissions drop. NOx is a more complex story: it depends on the type/blend of fuel, engine design, and how operated.

But the point is that if bio diesel is used on a larger scale, you would need to modify the diesels somewhat to use it optimally. And also control the type of veggie fuel you use. That’s if you want to do it on a very large scale.
Xue et al 2011 was the most recent review i found, but i’m sure there’s others.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2110003850

Nwafor 2004 found that veggie fuel produced slightly more carbon monoxide but less hydrocarbon contaminants. And the i crease in carbon was because of adjusting the operating temperature to allow for the higher viscosity of veggie oil. If you ran a hybride system you wouldn’t need to do that.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3404000625

Graboski and McCormack found mostly beneficial changes, but agree with the gist of my summary.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 8597000348
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 8109003826

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6110002590

Dorado et al 2003 found reductions in carbon and suplhur compounds, and a mix of increase/decrease for NOx compounds depending on the case and which compounds.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6103000346

There are a few more of interest:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 8597000348
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0400000807

Anyways, i don’t think it makes sense to grow bio-fuel crops everywhere: you’d want to optimize the crop with the growing conditions. But it could make a nice cash crop for a country that doesn’t have a lot of other resources, except land and sunshine.
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:11 pm

As far as UK taxes, you are exempt from duty on use of vegetable oil up to 2,500 liters. Per year. No problem for individuals then.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

I didn’t look for other countries.
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby v8dave » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:29 pm

WarthogARJ wrote:As far as UK taxes, you are exempt from duty on use of vegetable oil up to 2,500 liters. Per year. No problem for individuals then.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

I didn’t look for other countries.

Current tax rates are based on current usage and known abuses.
HMRC will adjust thresholds according to the need to raise revenue.

And I read the HMRC pages as meaning that you can produce 2,500 liters of fuel and apply for exemption from duty having kept detailed records of usage.
Wouldn't want to be arguing that after the event, they can probably crush the vehicle quicker than you can appeal their decision.

I fear most carbon accounting is flawed, I'd only consider a process carbon neutral if it has no net release of carbon into the environment.
The eliminates any internal combustion engine.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 pm

Anyways, if you want to discuss/debate this topic more, let’s start a separate thread.
Then it’s more usuful/visible to others.

It’s off-topic wrt my wanting to know what the internal design is of the filter head.
In any case, i don’t see much about servicing these parts: and yet there are lots of passages that can get clogged up, a few moving parts and quite a few seals.
And yet the filtration of diesel (or veggie... :D is mission critical to your faithful beast of haulage.
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:12 pm

knobby1 wrote:Depends on what engine it's fitted too...there's several different types.

Lord Knobrot


Ok, so “it depends”.... and so HOW does it depend?
Like where does one find out what the internal design is of one’s filter head?

Like can you tell me what other designs there are?
With some sort of reference?
Like ideally an engineering drawing?
Assuming Ford does those....and from some of what I’ve seen, some of their design engineers haven’t advanced past using crayon...

Is this knowledge held by the same crowd who guard the details about how to refurbish diesel injectors?
I hope not.
Jeez, those guys were serious about guarding what they knew.

Like to get the information am i going to have to slaughter a chicken, get naked at midnight under a full moon and paint myself with the blood and dance around my van counter-clockwise reciting “My hero’s are Rudolph Diesel and Henry Ford”, backwards, and at half normal speaking pace???

Ok, i mean initially that was sort of a cheap thrill, but when a passing Uber car called the local constabulary and i had to leg it buck naked, covered only in congealed chicken blood, the thrill wore off quite quickly....Maybe i should have stayed and argued it was my right to practice my own religion, but i think the local Yorkshire’s Finest wouldn’t pay that much attention to that before booking me disturbing the peace and causing a public nuisance...
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby knobby1 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:30 am

WarthogARJ wrote:Ok, so “it depends”.... and so HOW does it depend?
Like where does one find out what the internal design is of one’s filter head.?


There are different filter head units fitted to different engines/models, some of the FWD designs are different to the RWD due to piping requirements...with the TDDi engines, some had a small pump fitted, some didn't. The TDCi filter element is different to the TDDi element...there's lots of different configurations......so just asking "What does my filter head look like??" is a difficult question to answer.

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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:54 am

v8dave wrote:
WarthogARJ wrote:As far as UK taxes, you are exempt from duty on use of vegetable oil up to 2,500 liters. Per year. No problem for individuals then.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

I didn’t look for other countries.

Current tax rates are based on current usage and known abuses.
HMRC will adjust thresholds according to the need to raise revenue.

And I read the HMRC pages as meaning that you can produce 2,500 liters of fuel and apply for exemption from duty having kept detailed records of usage.
Wouldn't want to be arguing that after the event, they can probably crush the vehicle quicker than you can appeal their decision.

I fear most carbon accounting is flawed, I'd only consider a process carbon neutral if it has no net release of carbon into the environment.
The eliminates any internal combustion engine.


Ok, just to keep the reply in context, are you up to speed on how the HMRC law is actually APPLIED? You don’t need very detailed records, like a hand written list of amounts will suffice. I mean really, think about it. Like it’s not going to be more onerous than other tax requirements where you have to keep a log in order to claim a tax break/expemption.

Like the UK is not (yet) Stalinist Russia where you really have to worry about “them” stealing over in the dead of night to crush your car because you didn’t pay tax on burning usel veggie oil....especially not with the current movement towards reducing carbon emissions, and in general more environmental responsbility.

Like why do you think the tax law was changed? It’s because the government wants to ENCOURAGE actions like this....not go around crushing tree hugger’s cars.... :) :? :D

As far as your fears about carbon accounting being flawed, well i understand how one might initially think that way, but that view is not shared by the rest of the academic community. You need a big picture look, that view is looking at a tree only, so to speak. Look at the forest. And look at it in rerms of what can actually be done, especially in terms of what will make a real effect.

It’s important to have a sense of acale too, both in terms of geography, volumes of carbon released (and captured), as well as time.

And also to realize that it’s a dynamic PROCESS we’re looking at. As in there’s a certain amount of carbon based compounds released already, and they have a distribution. A four dimensional one: as in x, y, z (altitude, longitude, latitude if you like) as well as time. And that distribution in itself is not the evil beast, it’s what it does to the heat balance that is. And that also is a dynamic process, with a distribution.

Ok, so am i trying to obfuscate matters by making it seem complex? No, it IS complex. So you have to start simplifying matters, and making assumptions.

Like it wasn’t until just a few years ago that a pretty big camp of researchers admitted that the problem probably was indeed anthropogenic (caused by man). And not solely at the whim of emission rate from volcanoes and sea bed leakage. Although the arguments are not over, not all believe.

Do you know the ideas of the Australian researcher Ian Plimer? If not, google him. I’ve read his papers, as well as those who looked at the same data that he did and come to different conclusions. As i said, is complex stuff.

Even just measuring the change in average world temperature is pretty fuzzy....very hard to define. A lot of noise in the data, and natural variation. Plus we didn’t keep very detailed records until quite recently, so is hard to see changes.

Anyways, it’s easy to nit pick at various details, and pull threads out, and in general criticize the whole drive to reduce carbon emissions. But is that really such a smart idea? Like if you get carbon emissions, you usually get other emissions too. Like diesels spew out all sorts of nasty stuff: it’s why many German cities are going to control diesels in the inner cities in order to reduce those pollutants. And in fact why Europe as a whole is going to curtail the use of diesel powered transport in the coming years.

Same deal with power generation. Don’t take my word for it, but look up how much of electricity on average in Europe is generated by coal....is incredible. And coal is dirty.....not just carbon, but just like diesel, all sorts of other crap that’s bad for us. As a side note, that’s where the green movement shot itself in the foot. When they went anti-nuke in general 20 years or so ago, they really put nuke power generation on the back burner in many places (except France), and yet had no solutions to offer. So everyone kept on demnding electricity, so what happened? Well, more coal burned. LOTS of coal. In fct if you wanted to, you could easily build a case that said the greens caused the rise in carbon levels by squashing nuke generation, and yet doing nothing to reduce demand for power.

Add up all the carbon emissions from burning coal, and compare that to the target. Hmmm....interesting, eh? Like if instead of jumping on nuclear power generation 20-30 years ago, the geeens had encouraged it, and discouraged the use of dirty coal (as well as renewables: I am not against them) we’d be much better off in terms of carbon emissions. At least in terms of what humans generate. And definitely better off in terms of the other pollutants from coal.

So my point there is, be careful about sniping at things like using veggie oil to power a ford transit....it’s not going to save the world on its own, but at least it’s going in the right direction. And it’s not hurting anyone. Plus every veggie van that’s out there helps show case the idea that we can change. Like the electric cars you can see at times. And hybrids. On their own, they are not enough, but they can help to shape public opinion. As examples of change.

Like how often do you ride a bike on an errand instead of jumping in your big diesel burner? Maybe next time you go through the McDonald’s drivethru in your V8 for dinner for the family (and providing my free fuel from the chips grease) you can think, “Hey, i could have ridden my bike here...”. The Dutch have the right idea: encourage use of bikes, good public transport system (pretty efficient and not expensive) and controlling vehicle use in builtup areas by various measures.
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:08 am

knobby1 wrote:
WarthogARJ wrote:Ok, so “it depends”.... and so HOW does it depend?
Like where does one find out what the internal design is of one’s filter head.?


There are different filter head units fitted to different engines/models, some of the FWD designs are different to the RWD due to piping requirements...with the TDDi engines, some had a small pump fitted, some didn't. The TDCi filter element is different to the TDDi element...there's lots of different configurations......so just asking "What does my filter head look like??" is a difficult question to answer.

Lord Knobrot

Ok, so how does one find out what a given filter head look like? Without havimg yo do what i did, and dismantle it?

Like if i gve you a specific vehicle configuration could you tell me what the filter head was? Is there a reference anywhere? Or is this a deeply guarded secret by Ford?

Not just a part number, but its internal configuration. Like i described for mine. I am hoping there’s a reference source i can look at. Is it in the ford manuals you need to rent time on?

This is a big beef of mine with Fords. It can be very hard to tell what’s in your van, even for the professionals. Like one of Sheffield’s big autoelectrical places said they cannot tell you ahead of time if you have a relay for your alternator’s charging light or not. Sometimes one is fitted, sometime’s it’s not. Like even in EXACTLY the same vehicle configuration. They say that it seems completely random. Like maybe there’s a guy in Turkey who likes to go fishing. But he’s also the guy who installs the relay. When he’s fishing, no relays....
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby knobby1 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:37 am

I don't know if what you're after is available and I doubt you'll find a diagram showing the the internals, I don't know of any. All the filter head assemblies are very similar in their internal plumbing and operation. That's all I know I'm afraid.

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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:31 pm

knobby1 wrote:I don't know if what you're after is available and I doubt you'll find a diagram showing the the internals, I don't know of any. All the filter head assemblies are very similar in their internal plumbing and operation. That's all I know I'm afraid.

Lord Knobrot


There is definitely a lack of knowledge about them.
At least i’ve done my bit to fill that hole a bit... 8)

I suspect there are at least three major variants:
(1) Simple design for lift pump use: lift pump output (upstream of filter) goes through filter, all returns go direct back to tank. In effect it is like the generalized schematics for pump/filter systems you can find

(2) Moderate complexity like mine: no temperature control, no separate lift pump use is possible
Because flow is mingled from return(s) and suction supply

(3) Complex design: temperature control so that hot return diesel is sent to the tank via a heat exchanger. Cold diesel is routed (as in mine) to the suction supply.
Maybe two sub-variants, one that allows a downstream lift pump, and one that doesn’t.
The sub-variant for a lift pump would be interesting to see.
You’d need some sort of 3-way check valve to allow lift pump pressure to increase downstream of the filter.

There HAS to be at least two designs, to allow use of a lift pump, and also to be responsive to fuel temperature.
So rather than assume there’s just one general type, you need to consider at LEAST 3, and maybe 4 or 5.

So have you ever taken one apart?
Or seen the insides of one?
Like did you know about the restriction orifice plate?
I bet very few on the forum do know that.

Not trying to trip you up, but you’re like the pick of the litter in terms of transit knowledge.
If you don’t know what design someone has in their beast, who does?
Maybe the dealer.
Maybe.

Some units must fail/block/leak at some point in a 300k km average lifespan for the millions(?) of transits and other related diesels in the global fleet.

And as far as i can tell, nobody sells a service kit for them.
So it must be just a case of the dealer/mechanic swapping in a new one if they suspect problems.
Sortof typical: they are easy and cheap to service, once you have it off the vehicle you could strip and clean it in 15-20 minutes if you had a service kit of new seals/o-rings.

If they in fact even know the problem is due to it: it’s hard to trouble shoot if you don’t know how something works.
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby knobby1 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:25 pm

WarthogARJ wrote:There is definitely a lack of knowledge about them.
At least i’ve done my bit to fill that hole a bit... 8)


TBH...the lack of knowledge is because not many of us bother with the filter heads as not many of us use multiple fuels, the filter heads either work or they don't, if they're faulty or cracked, we replace them....you're probably one of only a small handfull on this forum who would even bother, we have literally thousands of members with equal or more numbers of transits.

Some have found running veggie oils or non-diesel fuels tends to foul things up somewhat and the maintenance of cleaning all the crap out of the systems is costly and troublesome....the TDCi systems and filters are too fine for the veggie oils and tend to clog up very quickly.
I wish you good luck with your endeavours, you may find more help on some of the more "environmentally friendly" diesel forums, we tend to deal with them as they were designed to run.....with diesel fuel.

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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby Chug » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:41 am

I've been running mk3/4/5 DI transits on my own homebrewed biodiesel for 13 years with no real problems, and I'm sure we've had others on our biofuel forum running later transits on biodiesel and one or two using veg oil

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/mybbforum/
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby WarthogARJ » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:49 pm

knobby1 wrote:
WarthogARJ wrote:There is definitely a lack of knowledge about them.
At least i’ve done my bit to fill that hole a bit... 8)


TBH...the lack of knowledge is because not many of us bother with the filter heads as not many of us use multiple fuels, the filter heads either work or they don't, if they're faulty or cracked, we replace them....you're probably one of only a small handfull on this forum who would even bother, we have literally thousands of members with equal or more numbers of transits.

Some have found running veggie oils or non-diesel fuels tends to foul things up somewhat and the maintenance of cleaning all the crap out of the systems is costly and troublesome....the TDCi systems and filters are too fine for the veggie oils and tend to clog up very quickly.
I wish you good luck with your endeavours, you may find more help on some of the more "environmentally friendly" diesel forums, we tend to deal with them as they were designed to run.....with diesel fuel.

Lord Knobrot

Ok, i’m going to get on my podium here and state my case. A bit is “tongue in cheek”, don’t take it as an attck n you personally. I can see from your many very helpful posts (including where you’ve posted some good info to my questions) that your intentions are good.

But i relly take issue with just about all of what you said. So see the following in a constructive way, please.

So it that a definite policy of fordtransit.org forum? That it’s not interested in conversions or upgrades to other fuel types?
Seriously?
I don’t see it written down anywhere.
Perhaps those who are open minded about it just don’t join the forum.
Or else don’t post about it because there’s no obvious interest in it: even a somewhat negative feeling about new ideas on the forum?
I imagine there are open minded members, and there is an interest. Maybe the dinosaurs need to move over and not squash ideas? Or discussion about new things?

I think this forum is exactly the right place to discuss the relative pro’s and cons of veggie conversions. I bet a lot of members would be pleasantly surprised at it’s practicality.
Do you want to censor that?
I think not.

As far as thinking that veggie oil conversions hve to cause clogging of diesel filters, or other TDCI parts, that’s misguided. Not trying to be rude here, but that’s exactly my point: it’s not for the half-assed mechanic to have a go at (ok, i called them idiots earlier). A veggie conversion needs to be done properly. Or you will get those things happening. You’ve heard tales of woe from....those who have 50% of their posterior.....the “thickies”....

Why would veggie oil need to clog a diesel filter when it doesn’t run through your diesel filter? Did you read my post, or the link? In any system where there is concern about clogging, you should have TWO filters, one that deals with diesel, one that deals with veggie. And won’t clog. And as i also said, best is to run a dual system if you are in a colder climate, or run lower grade veggie fuels that can congeal.

Do an experiment and look at the bottle of vegetable oil that sits on your shelf. Is that clogged? Why should it clog up a properly designed system if it doesn’t clog up in the bottle?

There’s four types of veggie fuels: straight/new, waste/filtered, converted (usually by an esterizing process) and blends (either with diesel or other component). They all behave differently.

I bet i can fill your van with a veggie blend that you won’t be able to tell apart from diesel. Can do a blind test, and see if you can tell when it’s veggie or diesel. A bit less power, but that’s going to be hard to pick up unless you really look for it. Most vans are not short on power: unless you drive at warp speed around Sydney all the time?

Also do yourself a favour: look up the wholesale price of new vegatable oil, bought in bulk (say >100 liters). Compare to diesel. Add on a bit for the conversion capital cost (a once off cost). Hmmm.....and after you’ve done the conversion, you save that every year....hmmmm....

The idea that veggie conversions are all run by guys who go skulking around the waste bins of chip shops or beg for waste oil is a bit outdated... :lol: :)

As far as me being one of a handfull (the only one?)bwho’s ever “bothered” to open their filter head..? Amazing. So sure, if your filter head is cracked it is stuffed. But how often does that happen? But if it “fails”....hmmmmm...why??? I bet i could return to service your “failed” head with 20 minutes effort and a few ££ of seals in most cases. I think the idea of just throwing away stuff is not good. Not if you can fix it cost/labour effectively.

On a related matter, did you know that we don’t actually have to mine any more bauxite ore for fresh aluminium? There’s enough already produced that with slightly more efficient recycling we could supply all demand for many years. You need to convert from dinosaur “that’s not how we do it here” thinking paradigm and let in fresh ideas....seriously.
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby knobby1 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:03 am

Oh...don't get me wrong, I'm not bagging you, I'm all for finding the best alternatives etc...I guess I'm just one of the many who just can't be bothered doing it...the time and energy invested by someone to do all this alternate fuel stuff would outway any inclination for me to do it.
I have better things to do with my time than spending countless hours and money chasing alternative fuels, I 'm sure you'd save quite a deal of money in the long run.

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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Diesel fuel filter head design/layout

Postby bigjohnthomas » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:54 am

WarthogARJ wrote:
Do an experiment and look at the bottle of vegetable oil that sits on your shelf. Is that clogged? Why should it clog up a properly designed system if it doesn’t clog up in the bottle?

.

Being a scientist I have conducted your test and concur with you findings :D
Test number 2 involves a little heat you'll need gloves, goggles and a lab coat for this
Empty the veg oil into a deep fat fryer of pan heat it a bit and it turns into big glob of Smeg stuck to sides that you can't get off
Now then
Now then
I am also an award winning cookery expert and when you combine high heat and vegetable oil you get a polymer thats like plastic or resin. The polymer bonds with the surface and results in robust finish used to season turnip frying pans that's why I always fry with premium diesel :D
Hope this helps
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