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Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limits)

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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby paul2012 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:57 pm

a11y wrote:

CALCULATIONS FOR TRANSIT CUSTOM DCIV L2H1 290 LIMITED

Now to prove that a Transit Custom can be defined as a dual-purpose vehicle. Bear with me…

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using above definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard, quoted in Ford brochure)
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

So as long as the bulkhead window size issue can be addressed and you have window(s) in your barn doors or tailgate, my conclusion is my particular variant of Transit Custom DCIV meets dual-purpose vehicle criteria...


"unladen weight" Includes driver but no fuel. - Used for towing :idea:
"Kerb Weight" includes tank of fuel but no driver

Then add weight of rear glass that is required. DCIV will be over the required 2040kg :(
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby paul2012 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:04 pm

a11y wrote:

I can’t see where/how you link taxation class (which is what N1 or M1, etc is) as the defining factor in speed limits. As already posted, not all N1 vehicles are equal – citing case of double-cab pickups such as Ford ranger or Nissan Navara already mentioned by Andi Mack

Thanks.



Taxation class has nothing to do with speed limits :wink:
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby richbee » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:19 pm

paul2012 wrote:
a11y wrote:

CALCULATIONS FOR TRANSIT CUSTOM DCIV L2H1 290 LIMITED

Now to prove that a Transit Custom can be defined as a dual-purpose vehicle. Bear with me…

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using above definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard, quoted in Ford brochure)
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

So as long as the bulkhead window size issue can be addressed and you have window(s) in your barn doors or tailgate, my conclusion is my particular variant of Transit Custom DCIV meets dual-purpose vehicle criteria...


"unladen weight" Includes driver but no fuel. - Used for towing :idea:
"Kerb Weight" includes tank of fuel but no driver

Then add weight of rear glass that is required. DCIV will be over the required 2040kg :(
No, unladen weight doesn't include driver or fuel (or water if you take it to the ultimate degree).
It does get rather confusing with unladen weight, min. kerb weight, mass in service

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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby paul2012 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:32 pm

richbee wrote:
paul2012 wrote:
a11y wrote:

CALCULATIONS FOR TRANSIT CUSTOM DCIV L2H1 290 LIMITED

Now to prove that a Transit Custom can be defined as a dual-purpose vehicle. Bear with me…

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using above definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard, quoted in Ford brochure)
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

So as long as the bulkhead window size issue can be addressed and you have window(s) in your barn doors or tailgate, my conclusion is my particular variant of Transit Custom DCIV meets dual-purpose vehicle criteria...


"unladen weight" Includes driver but no fuel. - Used for towing :idea:
"Kerb Weight" includes tank of fuel but no driver

Then add weight of rear glass that is required. DCIV will be over the required 2040kg :(
No, unladen weight doesn't include driver or fuel (or water if you take it to the ultimate degree).
It does get rather confusing with unladen weight, min. kerb weight, mass in service

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See here https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

Constructions of use reg states

Construction of use regs.

Unladen weight - the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.

kerbside weight- the weight of a vehicle when it carries

(a) in the case of a motor vehicle,

(i)No person; and

(ii) a full supply of fuel in its tank, an adequate supply of other liquids incidental to its propulsion and no load other than the loose tools and equipment with which it is normally equipped;
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby richbee » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:37 pm

paul2012 wrote:
richbee wrote:
paul2012 wrote:[quote="a11y"]


CALCULATIONS FOR TRANSIT CUSTOM DCIV L2H1 290 LIMITED

Now to prove that a Transit Custom can be defined as a dual-purpose vehicle. Bear with me…

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using above definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard, quoted in Ford brochure)
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

So as long as the bulkhead window size issue can be addressed and you have window(s) in your barn doors or tailgate, my conclusion is my particular variant of Transit Custom DCIV meets dual-purpose vehicle criteria...


"unladen weight" Includes driver but no fuel. - Used for towing :idea:
"Kerb Weight" includes tank of fuel but no driver

Then add weight of rear glass that is required. DCIV will be over the required 2040kg :(
No, unladen weight doesn't include driver or fuel (or water if you take it to the ultimate degree).
It does get rather confusing with unladen weight, min. kerb weight, mass in service

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See here https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

Constructions of use reg states

Construction of use regs.

Unladen weight - the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.

kerbside weight- the weight of a vehicle when it carries

(a) in the case of a motor vehicle,

(i)No person; and

(ii) a full supply of fuel in its tank, an adequate supply of other liquids incidental to its propulsion and no load other than the loose tools and equipment with which it is normally equipped;[/quote]From your link
'Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:

fuel'

I think it's pretty clear that doesn't include the driver - do you read it differently Paul?

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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby paul2012 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:58 pm

Unladen weight of vehicle does NOT include fuel. In the case of electric vehicles. The batteries.

wet.jpg
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby richbee » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:36 pm

paul2012 wrote:Unladen weight of vehicle does NOT include fuel. In the case of electric vehicles. The batteries.

wet.jpg


We're definitely agreed, it doesn't include fuel!

Are you saying you think because it doesn't specifically mention the driver, that the driver is included?
I can't see that the driver would be included, it is not mentioned and what is the point of having a driver, but no fuel or water?
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby a11y » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:23 pm

My understanding is unladen weight doesn’t include either a driver or fuel, but now can’t find the fact/definition to back up my understanding. I’ve always understood unladen weight to be just that: unladen without anything on board.

paul2012s link makes no mention of driver either way which is less than helpful of the government site! I don’t think you can draw a conclusion one way or the other from that.
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby paul2012 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:06 pm

richbee wrote:
paul2012 wrote:Unladen weight of vehicle does NOT include fuel. In the case of electric vehicles. The batteries.

wet.jpg


We're definitely agreed, it doesn't include fuel!

Are you saying you think because it doesn't specifically mention the driver, that the driver is included?
I can't see that the driver would be included, it is not mentioned and what is the point of having a driver, but no fuel or water?


Hydrogen powered vehicles vehicle uses "water" as fuel for it's hydrogen fuel cells :wink:
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby paul2012 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:46 pm

a11y wrote:My understanding is unladen weight doesn’t include either a driver or fuel, but now can’t find the fact/definition to back up my understanding. I’ve always understood unladen weight to be just that: unladen without anything on board.

paul2012s link makes no mention of driver either way which is less than helpful of the government site! I don’t think you can draw a conclusion one way or the other from that.


It seem you've forgotten that optional features /mods, like rear glass etc will increase overall weight :idea:

Here are the most recent weight definitions...

we.png


"Actual mass of the vehicle’ means the mass in running order plus the mass of the optional equipment fitted to an individual vehicle.
Although Mass in service/ Mass in running order includes "Standard" equipment. It does NOT include any optional equipment like. A/C, satnav, running boards etc etc :!:
Therefore MIRO is just manufacturers basic weight.

Unladen kerb weights. They're fast becoming history. MIRO is now used for caravans build from 2011 onwards & most recently, new trailers.

You can thank the EU for that one.
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby a11y » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:11 pm

A little update...

After submitting a query via the contact page on http://www.gov.uk, I now have confirmation (in writing) from the International Vehicle Standards Dept, Department for Transport, that unladen weight does NOT include the driver.
Dear Mr XXXX

Thank you for your email dated 28 October to the Gov.UK website. Your correspondence has been passed to the Department for Transport and hence to us in International Vehicle Standards (IVS) as we have responsibility for vehicle safety.

In relation to the unladen weight for dual purpose vehicles, as the weight of a driver is not specified as being included and a driver is not part of a vehicle, we understand that this is not included
Yours sincerely

James Brown
Department for Transport


For clarity, my query to them referenced the unladen weight definition here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:
* fuel
* batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair


So what does that mean for a Transit DCIV in relation to the criteria for a dual-purpose vehicle?

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using known definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard)
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met.

So, a Transit Custom DCIV H1 L2 290 like mine meets (or can meet) ALL criteria to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle and hence be subject to car speed limits. 8)
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby richbee » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:36 pm

a11y wrote:A little update...

After submitting a query via the contact page on http://www.gov.uk, I now have confirmation (in writing) from the International Vehicle Standards Dept, Department for Transport, that unladen weight does NOT include the driver.
Dear Mr XXXX

Thank you for your email dated 28 October to the Gov.UK website. Your correspondence has been passed to the Department for Transport and hence to us in International Vehicle Standards (IVS) as we have responsibility for vehicle safety.

In relation to the unladen weight for dual purpose vehicles, as the weight of a driver is not specified as being included and a driver is not part of a vehicle, we understand that this is not included
Yours sincerely

James Brown
Department for Transport


For clarity, my query to them referenced the unladen weight definition here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:
* fuel
* batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair


So what does that mean for a Transit DCIV in relation to the criteria for a dual-purpose vehicle?

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using known definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard)
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met.

So, a Transit Custom DCIV H1 L2 290 like mine meets (or can meet) ALL criteria to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle and hence be subject to car speed limits. 8)
Good work!
So the thick layer of mist & mud that hides this issue is gradually clearing

All you need then is rear windows fitting, then a couple of trial runs past speed cameras at car speeds to test the theory

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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby a11y » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:51 pm

Rear window (tailgate) – easy
Rear view mirror – easy, I think?
But that bulkhead window is literally 1cm too small to meet the criterion for rear vision – needs enlarged. Already have a plan though…

I’ll leave the testing to someone else initially :lol:
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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby richbee » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:02 pm

a11y wrote:Rear window (tailgate) – easy
Rear view mirror – easy, I think?
But that bulkhead window is literally 1cm too small to meet the criterion for rear vision – needs enlarged. Already have a plan though…

I’ll leave the testing to someone else initially
Me too for the testing!

You definitely don't need to have a rear view mirror (if you want one anyway that's different) , and I would argue that the bulkhead is not mentioned at all, but I've no evidence to back that up.
Be good to hear when you've got it up & running, and whether you actually drive any differently.
I might get round to it too at some point

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Re: Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limit

Postby a11y » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:42 pm

Certainly intend getting window fitted (already have the quote!) but need to finish off the cargo area first – storage, bike mounts and lining.

TBH I’m unsure about the bulkhead window but would rather not take the chance. Criteria says ‘rear must have window not less than 770cm2’ so technically probably OK, but enlarging it would help with the through vision anyway which I’m keen to have.

Change how I drive? Yes it will. Previous van was a camper conversion VW T5 (car speed limits), so I’m used to driving vans like this at normal speeds. At the moment I’m genuinely obeying van speed limits (well, mostly…) and it’s a right pain given where I live and the roads I use.
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