Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limits)

[dickllewellyn]

So,it’s a van to the government when it comes to speed limits, but when they’re deciding if you can reclaim VAT as a commercial vehicle they suddenly decide it’s a car.. I wish they’d make their mind up! I’m stuck with a panel van or trying to find a 310 DCIV if I want the VAT back, so surely anything you can’t reclaim on should be allowed to do “car” speeds?

[richbee]

So,it’s a van to the government when it comes to speed limits, but when they’re deciding if you can reclaim VAT as a commercial vehicle they suddenly decide it’s a car.. I wish they’d make their mind up! I’m stuck with a panel van or trying to find a 310 DCIV if I want the VAT back, so surely anything you can’t reclaim on should be allowed to do “car” speeds?

Sounds about right!

[paul2012]

A little update...

After submitting a query via the contact page on http://www.gov.uk, I now have confirmation (in writing) from the International Vehicle Standards Dept, Department for Transport, that unladen weight does NOT include the driver.

Dear Mr XXXX

Thank you for your email dated 28 October to the Gov.UK website. Your correspondence has been passed to the Department for Transport and hence to us in International Vehicle Standards (IVS) as we have responsibility for vehicle safety.

In relation to the unladen weight for dual purpose vehicles, as the weight of a driver is not specified as being included and a driver is not part of a vehicle, we understand that this is not included
Yours sincerely

James Brown
Department for Transport

For clarity, my query to them referenced the unladen weight definition here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:
* fuel
* batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

So what does that mean for a Transit DCIV in relation to the criteria for a dual-purpose vehicle?

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using known definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard)
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met.

So, a Transit Custom DCIV H1 L2 290 like mine meets (or can meet) ALL criteria to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle and hence be subject to car speed limits.

You have deducted weight of driver. Of which was NEVER included in the 1st place
Your "Mass IN Service" of 2131kg is the weight Ford themselves gave DVLA upon registering the vehicle.

The weight includes 90% tank of fuel. Ford never included weight of driver
This is how Ford calculate weights. (Taken from Ford Custom specs)

1.jpg

2.jpg

With 75kg already been deducted by Ford. The only weight that includes driver is GVW

Now it works out as 2131kg - 60kg (fuel) = 2071kg.

In the attempt to gain Dual purpose status. Rear glass added to rear doors (approx 20 to 25kg in glass) + 1kg worth of screen bond (1 tube weighs 500g) to be added to final weight
Of which have not included in any calculation. Even then you're still over the required 2040kg.

It's down to vehicle manufactures on what is included in terms of driver/ fuel & any optional features.
Ford themselves state that just having A/C will add 18kg to weight

Note the Custom Kombi (vehicle category M1) is not a dual purpose vehicle. It can driver at same speed limits set for cars.

[richbee]

A little update...

After submitting a query via the contact page on http://www.gov.uk, I now have confirmation (in writing) from the International Vehicle Standards Dept, Department for Transport, that unladen weight does NOT include the driver.

Dear Mr XXXX

Thank you for your email dated 28 October to the Gov.UK website. Your correspondence has been passed to the Department for Transport and hence to us in International Vehicle Standards (IVS) as we have responsibility for vehicle safety.

In relation to the unladen weight for dual purpose vehicles, as the weight of a driver is not specified as being included and a driver is not part of a vehicle, we understand that this is not included
Yours sincerely

James Brown
Department for Transport

For clarity, my query to them referenced the unladen weight definition here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of:
* fuel
* batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair

So what does that mean for a Transit DCIV in relation to the criteria for a dual-purpose vehicle?

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using known definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard)
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met.

So, a Transit Custom DCIV H1 L2 290 like mine meets (or can meet) ALL criteria to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle and hence be subject to car speed limits.

You have deducted weight of driver. Of which was NEVER included in the 1st place
Your "Mass IN Service" of 2131kg is the weight Ford themselves gave DVLA upon registering the vehicle.

)

No, no, no.

Sorry Paul, we've been round this already -

Mass in service is defined under The European Directive 95/48/EC which includes 90% fuel and 75kg for driver and tools.

Kerb weight is different - and does not include the driver

And then unladen weight is different again - without fuel or driver

[paul2012]

No, no, no.

Sorry Paul, we've been round this already -

Mass in service is defined under The European Directive 95/48/EC which includes 90% fuel and 75kg for driver and tools.

Kerb weight is different - and does not include the driver

And then unladen weight is different again - without fuel or driver

Well I have a renault here & its kerb weight & Mass is service is IDENTICAL
They have done the same as Ford. Calculated for 90% fuel excluding driver

Just checked with Toyota

They state...

Kerb Mass (or Kerb Weight): is the mass of the vehicle in running order unoccupied and unladen with all fluid reservoirs filled to nominal capacity, including fuel and with all standard equipment.

3.jpg

[richbee]

No, no, no.

Sorry Paul, we've been round this already -

Mass in service is defined under The European Directive 95/48/EC which includes 90% fuel and 75kg for driver and tools.

Kerb weight is different - and does not include the driver

And then unladen weight is different again - without fuel or driver

Well I have a renault here & its kerb weight & Mass is service is IDENTICAL
They have done the same as Ford. Calculated for 90% fuel excluding driver

Ok fair enough - but If you look at the 'kerb mass' in the brochure for the 290 L2 DCIV, the minimum value is 2056kg, which is exactly 75kg less than the 2131kg 'mass in service' on the V5 - so I don't think Ford have.
I can't believe it is so complicated to get a standard mass rating for vehicles, makes life so complicated.

[paul2012]

Ok fair enough - but If you look at the 'kerb mass' in the brochure for the 290 L2 DCIV, the minimum value is 2056kg, which is exactly 75kg less than the 2131kg 'mass in service' on the V5 - so I don't think Ford have.
I can't believe it is so complicated to get a standard mass rating for vehicles, makes life so complicated.

Yes but that weight is only the base model (Standard) with no optional features It does state that

[CrewsControl]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have a silly speed limit question...

I have a Tourneo Custom that has been converted by MSRT into a van by taking out the rear seats, adding a load floor and filling in the glass to the rear side windows only (ie. the tailgate is still glass and there's no bulkhead) In fact all the Tourneo interior trim including rear aircon has been left in place. They call this model the VR46... but the big thing for me was they managed to get the vehicle category changed to N1 which obviously has tax advantages. However, I'm left with the speed limit question...

So according to the V5 I have:
Model: Tourneo Custom 310 TI TDCI
Body Type: MPV
Taxation Class: Light Goods Vehicle
Number of seats including driver: 9
Vehicle Category: N1
Mass in Service: 2235

I know that there are many category N1 vehicles that have car speed limits... I just don't know if mine is one of them?

Thanks for assistance.

[richbee]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have a silly speed limit question...

I have a Tourneo Custom that has been converted by MSRT into a van by taking out the rear seats, adding a load floor and filling in the glass to the rear side windows only (ie. the tailgate is still glass and there's no bulkhead) In fact all the Tourneo interior trim including rear aircon has been left in place. They call this model the VR46... but the big thing for me was they managed to get the vehicle category changed to N1 which obviously has tax advantages. However, I'm left with the speed limit question...

So according to the V5 I have:
Model: Tourneo Custom 310 TI TDCI
Body Type: MPV
Taxation Class: Light Goods Vehicle
Number of seats including driver: 9
Vehicle Category: N1
Mass in Service: 2235

I know that there are many category N1 vehicles that have car speed limits... I just don't know if mine is one of them?

Thanks for assistance.

The normal tourneo custom get their car limits due to the M1 tax class - which means that now you are N1 class, your only hope is dual purpose vehicle status.
To do that, you need to have a row of rear seats and also have unladen weight less than 2040kg.
My DCIV has a mass in service of 2131 - which we have worked out if you look back at previous posts - to be 1996kg unladen.
It sounds like yours doesn't have any rear seats, and the mass in service is 100kg heavier, so I don't think you will qualify on both counts - sorry.

This is such a grey area tho, who knows what the actual answer is

[CrewsControl]

Sorry, I wasn't clear... I have rear seats, it's just the third row have now gone. (in fact they are further back than on the DCIV van)

Neither the dealer or my friendly traffic cop can give me a definitive answer, so it's a ridiculous system. Thanks for trying though!

[richbee]

Sorry, I wasn't clear... I have rear seats, it's just the third row have now gone. (in fact they are further back than on the DCIV van)

Neither the dealer or my friendly traffic cop can give me a definitive answer, so it's a ridiculous system. Thanks for trying though!

No worries.
Have to say it sounds like perfect vehicle apart from that.
Did you ask them to get it registered as N1 or are they all N1?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

[CrewsControl]

All the VR46's are N1 ...and the early ones even had the Tourneo glass left in all around !
Makes it difficult though because the speed limits are not simply related to taxation class.
It a minefield.

[a11y]

CrewsControl, welcome. Nice sounding van with that spec.

Van speed limits = minefield. As you’ll have read above I’ve pursued dual-purpose vehicle route for my DCIV. My take on it – including getting written (e-mail) confirmation from DoT and DVSA that unladen weight does NOT include driver or fuel – is that some Transit Customs are under the magic 2040kg unladen weight while others are not. Sadly I think the 2235kg mass in service of yours, despite having the 2nd row of seats and meeting all other classification, rules it out of being a dual-purpose vehicle (2235 - 75 driver - 60 fuel = 2100kg unladen weight). However, that’s my take on it and could be wrong – I don’t know about other options.


While I’m here, an update on mine:

Summarising above I still plan to add a tailgate window and enlarge my bulkhead aperture to satisfy dual-purpose vehicle criteria. Life’s got in the way plus my current insurer wasn’t happy with idea of a glazed panel in the load area for security (oh the irony) so it’s not been done so far. Insurance is due in a few months and I’ll change to someone who’ll allow it. Still have a company identified and quote provided for the rear window so just a case of waiting.

I’m 100% sure that my DCIV classifies on weight despite what some other posters think:
- Mass in Service (which includes 75kg driver and 90%/60kg fuel) on my V5C is 2131kg;
- Unladen Weight does NOT include driver or fuel;
- i.e. Unladen weight = “mass in service” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel;
- i.e. Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg for my 290 Limited L2 H1 DCIV.

I’ve really found the lower limits a PITA in reality. Holidayed in Cornwall at Easter and being limited to van limits all the way down the A30 was painful, plus a lot of my driving is on the A9 north of Stirling which has average speed cameras for its entire length and could easily sit at 60/70 otherwise. So yeah, I'm still going to do the window.

[CrewsControl]

Good points ally, and you've made me think... my V5 still says it's a 9 seater (which it never was as it left the factory with 8 ) ...and I have a feeling the 2235kg figure is also the standard mass in service for the original Tourneo. If we're going to loose the driver and fuel for unladen weight then maybe we need to loose the 3rd row of three seats too Not only was the removal required for the N1 class but they were really heavy !!!

If I end up with a definitive answer, I'll post on here - thank you.

[paul2012]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have a silly speed limit question...

I have a Tourneo Custom that has been converted by MSRT into a van by taking out the rear seats, adding a load floor and filling in the glass to the rear side windows only (ie. the tailgate is still glass and there's no bulkhead) In fact all the Tourneo interior trim including rear aircon has been left in place. They call this model the VR46... but the big thing for me was they managed to get the vehicle category changed to N1 which obviously has tax advantages. However, I'm left with the speed limit question...

So according to the V5 I have:
Model: Tourneo Custom 310 TI TDCI
Body Type: MPV
Taxation Class: Light Goods Vehicle
Number of seats including driver: 9
Vehicle Category: N1
Mass in Service: 2235

I know that there are many category N1 vehicles that have car speed limits... I just don't know if mine is one of them?

Thanks for assistance.

Transit Custom Tourneo body type is MINIBUS

Your body type is listed as MPV. You can drive at the same limits sets for cars.
Just like Merc Vito, Citroen Berlingo, Ford Galaxy, Renault Espace all are MPV.