a11y wrote:N1 or M1 doesn't matter - see previous post about other dual-purpose vehicles also having the N1 classification. So I don't think we can use that as the defining criteria.
Buggered if I know what actually dictates the speed limits that a vehicle should comply to. I agree you're right in saying it'll be linked to the registration, but it's what sits behind that. If the DVLA don't have anything to do with reclassifying to dual-purpose vehicle then I guess it WILL result in the potential for hassle/letters. As I wrote in my first post, I want an easy life hence trying to figure this all out
a11y wrote:N1 or M1 doesn't matter - see previous post about other dual-purpose vehicles also having the N1 classification. So I don't think we can use that as the defining criteria.
Buggered if I know what actually dictates the speed limits that a vehicle should comply to. I agree you're right in saying it'll be linked to the registration, but it's what sits behind that. If the DVLA don't have anything to do with reclassifying to dual-purpose vehicle then I guess it WILL result in the potential for hassle/letters. As I wrote in my first post, I want an easy life hence trying to figure this all out
paul2012 wrote:
M1 vehicles can drive at higher limits
N1 vehicles are subjected to lower speed limits.
Changing to a camper would achieve the car speed limits, but it's a bit more drastic than I'm currently planning!loot wrote:It will be whatever is easiest for dvsa/dvla or whatever earns them the most money.
We had a thing last year about ppl converting vans to campers and dvla at the time were just changing then to van with Windows think they calmed down in the end but certainly if your van looks like a van then it's a van as far as the powers that be are concerned. But as i said, millions of vans going through speed cameras etc won't be reliant on the judgement of law enforcement operators it'll be camera/database/yes or no flash of the camera.
If you need M1 as Paul says then that's what is needed, although it seems not that easy to change.
So is it worth looking at changing it to a camper then? (That's if they are car speeds)
Andi Mack wrote:paul2012 wrote:
M1 vehicles can drive at higher limits
N1 vehicles are subjected to lower speed limits.
It depends on the weight & body type, not the tax class.
ALL pickups are classed as N1 but some are subject to car limits and some are subject to van limits, it depends on the weight of the vehicle.
Some MPV's are also classed as N1, but are not subject to the van speed limits.
paul2012 wrote:Andi Mack wrote:paul2012 wrote:
M1 vehicles can drive at higher limits
N1 vehicles are subjected to lower speed limits.
It depends on the weight & body type, not the tax class.
ALL pickups are classed as N1 but some are subject to car limits and some are subject to van limits, it depends on the weight of the vehicle.
Some MPV's are also classed as N1, but are not subject to the van speed limits.
MPV (multi-purpose vehicle) Designed to carry max 8 passengers.
Transit Connect Tourneo, Transit Tourneo & Tourneo Custom are all MPV's, Vehicle category M1 & subject to the same speed limits set for car
Vehicle taxation class on vehicle after 2001 is either Light Goods Vehicle, Petrol Car or Diesel Car.
Vehicle category under section J on V5 is either...
M1 Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat.
M2 As above bus has more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a max weight of 5000kg.
M3 As above with more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maxweight exceeding 5000kg
Special Purpose M1 - Used for Motor caravans, Motor homes, Conversions / adapted vehicles.
N1 Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a max weight of 3000kg
N2 As above with max weight exceeding 3500kg but not exceeding 12000kg
N3 As above with max weight exceeding 12000kg
It's vehicle category that determines vehicle type & what speed limits it's limited to including if speed limiters are required.
Under the type approval
N1 Light Goods Vehicles - Motor vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3500 kg
A vehicle defined as a Van with a technically permissible maximum mass not exceeding 3500 kg is not considered to be a vehicle of category N1 where there are more than 6 seating positions, designated for use when the vehicle is in motion (excluding the driver) or, both of the following conditions are met:
(i) Number of seating positions (excluding the driver) is not more than 6
and
(ii) P – (M + N × 68) ≤ N × 68
P = technically permissible maximum laden mass in kg
M = mass in running order in kg
N = number of seating positions excluding the driver.
This is why Transit Custom DCIV (Double Cab in Van) classification (vehicle type approval) is N1 "Light Goods Vehicle"
& speed limits for goods vehicles applies.
Bravo sir!a11y wrote:Here’s the links/sources I’ve used to arrive at my current conclusion.
For avoidance of doubt, my conclusion is that a Transit Custom DCIV CAN obey car speed limits if it meets the criteria for a dual-purpose vehicle. From factory it fails on rearwards visibility due to lack of tailgate window (easily remedied) and also the bulkhead window being literally a bawhair/fag paper width too small (can be remedied with enlarging of aperture).
STEP 1: Clarify what the speed limits are
Source: https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing.
The important bit – which I’ve highlighted in yellow – clarifies speed limits (which we all know) and states that dual-purpose vehicles have the same speed limits as cars.
It provides a link to the definition of a dual-purpose vehicle, so lets go there…
STEP 2: Clarify what defines a ‘dual-purpose vehicle’
Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-vehicles
Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing
The important bit – which again I’ve highlighted in yellow – states that:
A dual purpose vehicle is a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods and designed to weigh no more than 2,040 kg when unladen, and is either:
• constructed or adapted so that the driving power of the engine is, or can be selected to be, transmitted to all wheels of the vehicle
or
• permanently fitted with a rigid roof, at least one row of transverse passenger seats to the rear of the driver’s seat and will have side and rear windows - there must also be a minimum ratio between the size of passenger and stowage areas
See The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (Part 1 Regulation 3) for the full definition.
That directs you to another page within the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986 for the full definition of a dual-purpose vehicle, so lets now go there…
STEP 3: Determine the full definition of a dual-purpose vehicle from the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986
Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986 ... ion/3/made
Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing
So, the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986 gives the precise definition of a dual-purpose vehicle including the exact criteria which must be met. Formatting is horrific so you’re best to read it from source link above or the export I’ve shared.
That same document also defines ‘unladen weight’ as:
the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.
QUICK SUMMARY
The above isn’t the easiest to follow, so I’ve summarised it all here in plain English:
• A dual-purpose vehicle has the same speed limits as a car;
• There are clearly defined criteria for a vehicle to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle;
• Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Criterion 2: must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof;
• Criterion 3: have at least 1 row of transverse seats permanently fitted;
• Criterion 4: each side must have a window not less than 1850 cm2;
• Criterion 5: rear must have a window not less than 770 cm2;
• Criterion 6: passenger area (the distance from steering wheel to backrest of rear seats) must not be less than one third of the total internal length (defined as distance from steering wheel to rear cargo area door).
CALCULATIONS FOR TRANSIT CUSTOM DCIV L2H1 290 LIMITED
Now to prove that a Transit Custom can be defined as a dual-purpose vehicle. Bear with me…
Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using above definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard, quoted in Ford brochure)
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.
Criterion 2: must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof;
• Easy – I hope my roof is rigid…
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.
Criterion 3: have at least 1 row of transverse seats permanently fitted;
• Easy – 1 x row of 3 seats permanently fitted from factory.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.
Criterion 4: each side must have a window not less than 1850 cm2;
• Each sliding door window measures 84cm x 37cm (narrowest depth) = 3108 cm2
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.
Criterion 5: rear must have a window not less than 770 cm2;
• Tailgate window measures 125cm x 53cm = 6625 cm2
• Bulkhead is the issue: window in bulkhead measures 38.5cm x 18.5cm = 712.5 cm2.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.
Criterion 6: passenger area (the distance from steering wheel to backrest of rear seats) must not be less than one third of the total internal length (defined as distance from steering wheel to rear cargo area door).
• Cab length steering wheel to rear seat backrest = 173cm max to 160cm min
• Overall van interior length: steering wheel to rear doors = 73 + 8cm (gap rear seat to bulkhead) + 190 = 371cm
• i.e. the cabin accounts for 173 / 371 = 46.7% of the overall vehicle interior.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.
So as long as the bulkhead window size issue can be addressed and you have window(s) in your barn doors or tailgate, my conclusion is my particular variant of Transit Custom DCIV meets dual-purpose vehicle criteria...
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