Transit Custom DCIV - dual-purpose vehicle? (speed limits)

[richbee]

Latest from the DVLA:
"I am sorry, the changing of a vehicle's purpose relating to speed and weight is not something DVLA are able to assist with."



Just emailed Ford to see if they can help and provide an actual weight.

I am thinking that there is enough evidence in the regulations that if the weight is confirmed as under the magic 2040kg, by fitting rear windows, everything is hunkydory & I have myself a dual purpose vehicle!

[loot]

I assume that the police camera scans the number plate and based on the result it beeps to say you are speeding or let's you go on your way.

So does your log book say that it is ok for car speeds or not? If not and you need to change it to N1 or M1 then if dvla can't/won't help then what?

If it is a case that you can show that you are good for car speeds but there is no info to confirm this on the registration then I'll bet you'll be getting a lot of letters in the post and hassle.


Just my thoughts.

[a11y]

N1 or M1 doesn't matter - see previous post about other dual-purpose vehicles also having the N1 classification. So I don't think we can use that as the defining criteria.

Buggered if I know what actually dictates the speed limits that a vehicle should comply to. I agree you're right in saying it'll be linked to the registration, but it's what sits behind that. If the DVLA don't have anything to do with reclassifying to dual-purpose vehicle then I guess it WILL result in the potential for hassle/letters. As I wrote in my first post, I want an easy life hence trying to figure this all out

[yasser]

N1 or M1 doesn't matter - see previous post about other dual-purpose vehicles also having the N1 classification. So I don't think we can use that as the defining criteria.

Buggered if I know what actually dictates the speed limits that a vehicle should comply to. I agree you're right in saying it'll be linked to the registration, but it's what sits behind that. If the DVLA don't have anything to do with reclassifying to dual-purpose vehicle then I guess it WILL result in the potential for hassle/letters. As I wrote in my first post, I want an easy life hence trying to figure this all out

just reading through all the links from google and else where i think you,re right about the N1 or M1 status. But the other category that the govenment web site states is "CDV" the car derived van. it also says that unless your V5 says CDV in body type you vehicle will be based as a commercial vehicle and subject to those speeds. So perhaps its "Body type" you need to get altered from panel van to dual perpose.

[bigjohnthomas]

I've just written a strongly worded letter to the dvla
Demanding they re register my van as a fridge
This way there's no road tax and no speed limits

[paul2012]

N1 or M1 doesn't matter - see previous post about other dual-purpose vehicles also having the N1 classification. So I don't think we can use that as the defining criteria.

Buggered if I know what actually dictates the speed limits that a vehicle should comply to. I agree you're right in saying it'll be linked to the registration, but it's what sits behind that. If the DVLA don't have anything to do with reclassifying to dual-purpose vehicle then I guess it WILL result in the potential for hassle/letters. As I wrote in my first post, I want an easy life hence trying to figure this all out

A "Dual purpose vehicle" depending on it's type approval can be either a M1 or N1.

M1 vehicles can drive at higher limits
N1 vehicles are subjected to lower speed limits.

DCIV must have minimum ratio between size of the passenger and payload area to be classified as "dual purpose vehicles"
That's rarely used as most dual purpose vehicles are 4X4's


If you want a Custom to drive at higher limits then go buy a Custom Kombi. Their type approval is M1.
Difference between kombi's & DCIV. Kombi's have glass all round. No bulkhead & position of second row of seats is slightly different.
Resulting in shorter load area length than DCVI.

When is a "light goods vehicle N1" not a lights goods vehicle When it has glass all round & filled up with seats leaving no payload area for goods. Primarily used for passenger carrying vehicle. Resulting in reclassification as M1.

Forget Ford writing a letter to confirm details. Been there, done it & worn the T-Shirt.

I myself completed a conversion on a Transit connect. Later engine etc, conversion from Euro 3 to Euro 4 emission standards.
Had vehicle inspected by Ford themselves. They provided letter confirming all details including confirmation of EURO 4 emission standards had been met. Sent all details to DVLA as vehicle qualified for cheaper road tax. DVLA Sent new V5 back with new engine number etc. But emission standards still remained at EURO 3. They said it could not be changed, it had EURO 3 the on vehicles type approval when 1st registered from new.

[Andi Mack]

M1 vehicles can drive at higher limits
N1 vehicles are subjected to lower speed limits.

It depends on the weight & body type, not the tax class.

ALL pickups are classed as N1 but some are subject to car limits and some are subject to van limits, it depends on the weight of the vehicle.

Some MPV's are also classed as N1, but are not subject to the van speed limits.

[loot]

It will be whatever is easiest for dvsa/dvla or whatever earns them the most money.

We had a thing last year about ppl converting vans to campers and dvla at the time were just changing then to van with Windows think they calmed down in the end but certainly if your van looks like a van then it's a van as far as the powers that be are concerned. But as i said, millions of vans going through speed cameras etc won't be reliant on the judgement of law enforcement operators it'll be camera/database/yes or no flash of the camera.

If you need M1 as Paul says then that's what is needed, although it seems not that easy to change.

So is it worth looking at changing it to a camper then? (That's if they are car speeds)

[richbee]

It will be whatever is easiest for dvsa/dvla or whatever earns them the most money.

We had a thing last year about ppl converting vans to campers and dvla at the time were just changing then to van with Windows think they calmed down in the end but certainly if your van looks like a van then it's a van as far as the powers that be are concerned. But as i said, millions of vans going through speed cameras etc won't be reliant on the judgement of law enforcement operators it'll be camera/database/yes or no flash of the camera.

If you need M1 as Paul says then that's what is needed, although it seems not that easy to change.

So is it worth looking at changing it to a camper then? (That's if they are car speeds)

Changing to a camper would achieve the car speed limits, but it's a bit more drastic than I'm currently planning!
My original plan was to get an M1 tourneo to have all the flexibility of folding seats & luggage space & speed limits, but that was kyboshed due to being impossible to get a reasonable insurance quote - it ended up being well over a grand for an 8 or 9 seater & most companies won't even quote for it!

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[paul2012]

M1 vehicles can drive at higher limits
N1 vehicles are subjected to lower speed limits.

It depends on the weight & body type, not the tax class.

ALL pickups are classed as N1 but some are subject to car limits and some are subject to van limits, it depends on the weight of the vehicle.

Some MPV's are also classed as N1, but are not subject to the van speed limits.

MPV (multi-purpose vehicle) Designed to carry max 8 passengers.
Transit Connect Tourneo, Transit Tourneo & Tourneo Custom are all MPV's, Vehicle category M1 & subject to the same speed limits set for car


Vehicle taxation class on vehicle after 2001 is either Light Goods Vehicle, Petrol Car or Diesel Car.

Vehicle category under section J on V5 is either...

M1 Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat.
M2 As above bus has more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a max weight of 5000kg.
M3 As above with more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maxweight exceeding 5000kg
Special Purpose M1 - Used for Motor caravans, Motor homes, Conversions / adapted vehicles.

N1 Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a max weight of 3000kg
N2 As above with max weight exceeding 3500kg but not exceeding 12000kg
N3 As above with max weight exceeding 12000kg

It's vehicle category that determines vehicle type & what speed limits it's limited to including if speed limiters are required.

Under the type approval

N1 Light Goods Vehicles - Motor vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3500 kg
A vehicle defined as a Van with a technically permissible maximum mass not exceeding 3500 kg is not considered to be a vehicle of category N1 where there are more than 6 seating positions, designated for use when the vehicle is in motion (excluding the driver) or, both of the following conditions are met:

(i) Number of seating positions (excluding the driver) is not more than 6

and

(ii) P – (M + N × 68) ≤ N × 68

P = technically permissible maximum laden mass in kg
M = mass in running order in kg
N = number of seating positions excluding the driver.

This is why Transit Custom DCIV (Double Cab in Van) classification (vehicle type approval) is N1 "Light Goods Vehicle"
& speed limits for goods vehicles applies.

[loot]

M1 special purpose, adapted vehicle.

Stick a ramp in the back for wheelchairs (motorbikes)

[a11y]

M1 vehicles can drive at higher limits
N1 vehicles are subjected to lower speed limits.

It depends on the weight & body type, not the tax class.

ALL pickups are classed as N1 but some are subject to car limits and some are subject to van limits, it depends on the weight of the vehicle.

Some MPV's are also classed as N1, but are not subject to the van speed limits.

MPV (multi-purpose vehicle) Designed to carry max 8 passengers.
Transit Connect Tourneo, Transit Tourneo & Tourneo Custom are all MPV's, Vehicle category M1 & subject to the same speed limits set for car


Vehicle taxation class on vehicle after 2001 is either Light Goods Vehicle, Petrol Car or Diesel Car.

Vehicle category under section J on V5 is either...

M1 Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat.
M2 As above bus has more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a max weight of 5000kg.
M3 As above with more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maxweight exceeding 5000kg
Special Purpose M1 - Used for Motor caravans, Motor homes, Conversions / adapted vehicles.

N1 Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a max weight of 3000kg
N2 As above with max weight exceeding 3500kg but not exceeding 12000kg
N3 As above with max weight exceeding 12000kg

It's vehicle category that determines vehicle type & what speed limits it's limited to including if speed limiters are required.

Under the type approval

N1 Light Goods Vehicles - Motor vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3500 kg
A vehicle defined as a Van with a technically permissible maximum mass not exceeding 3500 kg is not considered to be a vehicle of category N1 where there are more than 6 seating positions, designated for use when the vehicle is in motion (excluding the driver) or, both of the following conditions are met:

(i) Number of seating positions (excluding the driver) is not more than 6

and

(ii) P – (M + N × 68) ≤ N × 68

P = technically permissible maximum laden mass in kg
M = mass in running order in kg
N = number of seating positions excluding the driver.

This is why Transit Custom DCIV (Double Cab in Van) classification (vehicle type approval) is N1 "Light Goods Vehicle"
& speed limits for goods vehicles applies.

Could you post the source link(s)? No offence intended, but without the source I can only read your post as ‘what some bloke on t’internet thinks’.

I can’t see where/how you link taxation class (which is what N1 or M1, etc is) as the defining factor in speed limits. As already posted, not all N1 vehicles are equal – citing case of double-cab pickups such as Ford ranger or Nissan Navara already mentioned by Andi Mack

Thanks.

[a11y]

Here’s the links/sources I’ve used to arrive at my current conclusion.

For avoidance of doubt, my conclusion is that a Transit Custom DCIV CAN obey car speed limits if it meets the criteria for a dual-purpose vehicle. From factory it fails on rearwards visibility due to lack of tailgate window (easily remedied) and also the bulkhead window being literally a bawhair/fag paper width too small (can be remedied with enlarging of aperture).


STEP 1: Clarify what the speed limits are

Source: https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing.

The important bit – which I’ve highlighted in yellow – clarifies speed limits (which we all know) and states that dual-purpose vehicles have the same speed limits as cars.

It provides a link to the definition of a dual-purpose vehicle, so lets go there…


STEP 2: Clarify what defines a ‘dual-purpose vehicle’

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-vehicles

Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing

The important bit – which again I’ve highlighted in yellow – states that:

A dual purpose vehicle is a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods and designed to weigh no more than 2,040 kg when unladen, and is either:
• constructed or adapted so that the driving power of the engine is, or can be selected to be, transmitted to all wheels of the vehicle
or
• permanently fitted with a rigid roof, at least one row of transverse passenger seats to the rear of the driver’s seat and will have side and rear windows - there must also be a minimum ratio between the size of passenger and stowage areas

See The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (Part 1 Regulation 3) for the full definition.

That directs you to another page within the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986 for the full definition of a dual-purpose vehicle, so lets now go there…


STEP 3: Determine the full definition of a dual-purpose vehicle from the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986 ... ion/3/made

Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing

So, the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986 gives the precise definition of a dual-purpose vehicle including the exact criteria which must be met. Formatting is horrific so you’re best to read it from source link above or the export I’ve shared.

That same document also defines ‘unladen weight’ as:
the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.


QUICK SUMMARY

The above isn’t the easiest to follow, so I’ve summarised it all here in plain English:
• A dual-purpose vehicle has the same speed limits as a car;
• There are clearly defined criteria for a vehicle to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle;
• Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Criterion 2: must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof;
• Criterion 3: have at least 1 row of transverse seats permanently fitted;
• Criterion 4: each side must have a window not less than 1850 cm2;
• Criterion 5: rear must have a window not less than 770 cm2;
• Criterion 6: passenger area (the distance from steering wheel to backrest of rear seats) must not be less than one third of the total internal length (defined as distance from steering wheel to rear cargo area door).


CALCULATIONS FOR TRANSIT CUSTOM DCIV L2H1 290 LIMITED

Now to prove that a Transit Custom can be defined as a dual-purpose vehicle. Bear with me…

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using above definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard, quoted in Ford brochure)
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 2: must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof;
• Easy – I hope my roof is rigid…
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 3: have at least 1 row of transverse seats permanently fitted;
• Easy – 1 x row of 3 seats permanently fitted from factory.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 4: each side must have a window not less than 1850 cm2;
• Each sliding door window measures 84cm x 37cm (narrowest depth) = 3108 cm2
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 5: rear must have a window not less than 770 cm2;
• Tailgate window measures 125cm x 53cm = 6625 cm2
• Bulkhead is the issue: window in bulkhead measures 38.5cm x 18.5cm = 712.5 cm2.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 6: passenger area (the distance from steering wheel to backrest of rear seats) must not be less than one third of the total internal length (defined as distance from steering wheel to rear cargo area door).
• Cab length steering wheel to rear seat backrest = 173cm max to 160cm min
• Overall van interior length: steering wheel to rear doors = 73 + 8cm (gap rear seat to bulkhead) + 190 = 371cm
• i.e. the cabin accounts for 173 / 371 = 46.7% of the overall vehicle interior.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

So as long as the bulkhead window size issue can be addressed and you have window(s) in your barn doors or tailgate, my conclusion is my particular variant of Transit Custom DCIV meets dual-purpose vehicle criteria...

[yasser]

I would't get to hung up about speeds! i know it is your end goal but its not something that the DVLA will get involved in. I believe you do have a good case to put forward but if i were doing it, i would concentrate just on getting it registered as dual purpose. If you van fulfils all the criteria to be registered (And i believe it does, just close on weight)as dual purpose, i would send the documents in to that affect. Dvla will have to reply and give you the reason why if they refuse. A refusal might be on the grounds of type of vehicle as a whole ie. the transit custom range in its entirety goes down as a Panel van as thats what its based on and thats what its built as. If they do change it it might go down as an adapted vehicle becuase that is what it will become because thats what you have done to the vehicle to try and get it into the dual purpose category. But even that might give you the M1 classification enabling the higher speeds.

This all makes sense in my head, i hope it does in print or it might be just b*******cks

[richbee]

Here’s the links/sources I’ve used to arrive at my current conclusion.

For avoidance of doubt, my conclusion is that a Transit Custom DCIV CAN obey car speed limits if it meets the criteria for a dual-purpose vehicle. From factory it fails on rearwards visibility due to lack of tailgate window (easily remedied) and also the bulkhead window being literally a bawhair/fag paper width too small (can be remedied with enlarging of aperture).


STEP 1: Clarify what the speed limits are

Source: https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing.

The important bit – which I’ve highlighted in yellow – clarifies speed limits (which we all know) and states that dual-purpose vehicles have the same speed limits as cars.

It provides a link to the definition of a dual-purpose vehicle, so lets go there…


STEP 2: Clarify what defines a ‘dual-purpose vehicle’

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-vehicles

Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing

The important bit – which again I’ve highlighted in yellow – states that:

A dual purpose vehicle is a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods and designed to weigh no more than 2,040 kg when unladen, and is either:
• constructed or adapted so that the driving power of the engine is, or can be selected to be, transmitted to all wheels of the vehicle
or
• permanently fitted with a rigid roof, at least one row of transverse passenger seats to the rear of the driver’s seat and will have side and rear windows - there must also be a minimum ratio between the size of passenger and stowage areas

See The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (Part 1 Regulation 3) for the full definition.

That directs you to another page within the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986 for the full definition of a dual-purpose vehicle, so lets now go there…


STEP 3: Determine the full definition of a dual-purpose vehicle from the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986 ... ion/3/made

Export of the above link with the important bits highlighted in yellow: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GIea ... sp=sharing

So, the Road Vehicle Regulations 1986 gives the precise definition of a dual-purpose vehicle including the exact criteria which must be met. Formatting is horrific so you’re best to read it from source link above or the export I’ve shared.

That same document also defines ‘unladen weight’ as:
the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.


QUICK SUMMARY

The above isn’t the easiest to follow, so I’ve summarised it all here in plain English:
• A dual-purpose vehicle has the same speed limits as a car;
• There are clearly defined criteria for a vehicle to be classed as a dual-purpose vehicle;
• Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Criterion 2: must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof;
• Criterion 3: have at least 1 row of transverse seats permanently fitted;
• Criterion 4: each side must have a window not less than 1850 cm2;
• Criterion 5: rear must have a window not less than 770 cm2;
• Criterion 6: passenger area (the distance from steering wheel to backrest of rear seats) must not be less than one third of the total internal length (defined as distance from steering wheel to rear cargo area door).


CALCULATIONS FOR TRANSIT CUSTOM DCIV L2H1 290 LIMITED

Now to prove that a Transit Custom can be defined as a dual-purpose vehicle. Bear with me…

Criterion 1: unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg;
• Registration document quotes “mass in service” of 2131kg (which is the same as “mass in running order”).
• Using above definition of unladen weight, to calculate “unladen weight” from the “mass in service” requires deducting weight of driver and fuel.
• 90% of 80L tank = 72L diesel = 60kg (because density of diesel = 832kg/m3)
• Weight of driver = 75kg (industry standard, quoted in Ford brochure)
• Unladen weight = “mass in running order” minus weight of driver minus weight of fuel
• Unladen weight = 2131 - 75 - 60 = 1996kg
• i.e. unladen weight of Transit Custom DCIV 290 Limited is less than the max permitted unladen weight for a dual-purpose vehicle.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 2: must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof;
• Easy – I hope my roof is rigid…
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 3: have at least 1 row of transverse seats permanently fitted;
• Easy – 1 x row of 3 seats permanently fitted from factory.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 4: each side must have a window not less than 1850 cm2;
• Each sliding door window measures 84cm x 37cm (narrowest depth) = 3108 cm2
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 5: rear must have a window not less than 770 cm2;
• Tailgate window measures 125cm x 53cm = 6625 cm2
• Bulkhead is the issue: window in bulkhead measures 38.5cm x 18.5cm = 712.5 cm2.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

Criterion 6: passenger area (the distance from steering wheel to backrest of rear seats) must not be less than one third of the total internal length (defined as distance from steering wheel to rear cargo area door).
• Cab length steering wheel to rear seat backrest = 173cm max to 160cm min
• Overall van interior length: steering wheel to rear doors = 73 + 8cm (gap rear seat to bulkhead) + 190 = 371cm
• i.e. the cabin accounts for 173 / 371 = 46.7% of the overall vehicle interior.
• Outcome: criterion met, box ticked.

So as long as the bulkhead window size issue can be addressed and you have window(s) in your barn doors or tailgate, my conclusion is my particular variant of Transit Custom DCIV meets dual-purpose vehicle criteria...

Bravo sir!

That's pretty much where I'm at.
My only concern is if the unladen weight includes all the optional extras for the limited. I'm pretty sure the 2131 is the basic weight - if you subtract driver weight of 75, it comes to 2056, which is the lowest value in the range you originally quoted from the latest brochure.

Although... Your above definition of unladen weight also mentions it doesn't count the water in the system, must be a few litres in the cooling systems, if we're really getting desperate!

I've mailed Ford re. The weight, but no joy so far, they suggest I contact the Ford dealer.

I do tend to think that as we have a specific figure on the v5 (2131kg), that should be the figure we use,but would like to be sure

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