Been nabbed by the police for illegal towing

[shirlz]

So, can I pull my horse trailer plus horse legally in my van.....ok only joking .....as far as I know im legal and that will do me...for all the time I use it for this at the moment

[ME]

Saw a blinder this morning. A ex PO Daf thingy with what looked like a brian james car trailer in tow. It was loading a 55 plate Jumbo but the trailer was just not long enough

So they took the wheels of the jumbo so it was sitting on its drums and disc's on the triler bed

Worrying

[MinorMatt]

How would it fit on drums and discs, but not on the wheels???

[ME]

How would it fit on drums and discs, but not on the wheels???

because it makes it about a foot shorter ... but not


It took me a while to work it out

But if you measure from the edge of the brake disc to the flat of the tyre and the same with the brake drum. The add the 2 together it'll be about a foot ..............

[billm]

I'm really not sure about this either, I'm 50/50 on whether the trailer MAM or actual kerbside weight needs to be within the GTW of the towing vehicle.

Half of me says actual kerbside weight of the trailer, the other half supposes it could be the MAM of the trailer. Reasoning for this is if you imagine someone with a max 3.5t licence, could they drive a 7.5 tonner unladen if it is actually below 3.5t kerbside? Certainly not.

I'm still 50/50 on it

Hopefully vannut will find the definitive answer.

Cheers
Bill

[merseycool]

Hello mate you also need to be aware of the operator licence requirements, somebody mentioned when moving goods on a vehicle or trailer you need a tacho because its for hire and reward purposes. Yoy need a tacho when the vehicles carrying weight exceeds 3500kgs if the goods being carried are fro hire and reward then you require a standard national operators licence, if the goods being carried are your own then you require a restricted national licence, to obtain the licences you will require a CPC certificate (Certificate of profesional competance) hope this helps, if you need any more info please get in touch through the forum thans Steve (doing

Something of around 2600kg GVW on the van would be more than adequate, leaving me 2600KG MAM for the trailer, which would work out about right for what I need.

The trouble is that the smaller capacity vans also have a smaller GTW, for example mine is 2850GVW and only 3500GTW

I was always told that you couldn't tow anything heavier than the tow vehicle, and this would seem to be correct from what you've just found out

I fear that the towing limit for the van is locked at 2t, as the GTW seems to follow the GVW for a limit of 2t.

As I have been informed on another site where I asked, If I approach VOSA and ask for the van to be downplated in order to sling more weight on the back, they will reject on the grounds that the 2000kg towing limit will be increased beyong manufacturer's specifications

Regarding the query about weight ratios, and the trailer MAM not being more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, this is correct for standard license holders, but the restriction is removed for B+E license holders.

[vannut]

Hello mate you also need to be aware of the operator licence requirements, somebody mentioned when moving goods on a vehicle or trailer you need a tacho because its for hire and reward purposes. Yoy need a tacho when the vehicles carrying weight exceeds 3500kgs if the goods being carried are fro hire and reward then you require a standard national operators licence, if the goods being carried are your own then you require a restricted national licence, to obtain the licences you will require a CPC certificate (Certificate of profesional competance) hope this helps, if you need any more info please get in touch through the forum thans Steve (doing

Operator's licence doesn't apply if your trailer is less than 1020kg Unladen weight so you'd be unlikely to ever need an operator's licence for a transit.

[ME]

Hello mate you also need to be aware of the operator licence requirements, somebody mentioned when moving goods on a vehicle or trailer you need a tacho because its for hire and reward purposes. Yoy need a tacho when the vehicles carrying weight exceeds 3500kgs if the goods being carried are fro hire and reward then you require a standard national operators licence, if the goods being carried are your own then you require a restricted national licence, to obtain the licences you will require a CPC certificate (Certificate of profesional competance) hope this helps, if you need any more info please get in touch through the forum thans Steve (doing

Operator's licence doesn't apply if your trailer is less than 1020kg Unladen weight so you'd be unlikely to ever need an operator's licence for a transit.

Also to obtain a restricted licence no CPC holder is required

[vannut]

My latest e-mail to Department for Transport (copied to VOSA)

"I am trying to clear up an issue regarding towing weights.

I refer to your web page http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle ... uently4577 ("Towing cars and light vehicles: frequently asked questions") which it states the following:

"So if for example you have a car with a maximum weight of 2180 kg and a train weight of 3980 kg the maximum towing capacity will be 3980 kg minus 2180 kg which gives a towing capacity of 1800kg"



As far as I am aware, as long as all of the individual weights, i.e. axle weights, vehicle MAM, trailer MAM, and train MAM are not exceeded then the vehicle is legal, and there is no offence committed.



I have searched the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 and I can find no mention of subtracting the vehicle weight from the train weight to give the trailer weight. I fully accept that there have been numerous amendments to this statutory instrument since 1986!



Also, this document: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle ... ortrailers states the following: "In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer." which contradicts the information given in your "Towing cars and light vehicles: frequently asked questions" page.



This question has arisen as a result of a friend of mine who was stopped by the local police whilst driving a vehicle towing a trailer.

His drawing vehicle is plated at 5200kg MAM (Train weight), and the Trailer MAM is 3000kg

He was weighed and found to have a train weight of 4941kg, all of the other relevent axle and vehicle weights were below the maximum authorised limit.

He was advised that he was overweight, because the MAM of the drawing vehicle is 3200kg, and after subtracting this from the MAM train weight he was only allowed to tow a trailer weighing 2000kg actual weight. This was the case even though the actual weight of the drawing vehicle at this time was only about 2200kgs, and none of the plated weights were exceeded.



I must point out that there is no pending prosecution in this case, however my friend was advised that he couldn't tow a trailer weighing more than 2000kg actual weight with his vehicle, and he is therefore considering changing his vehicle.

I would also point out that I was a Road Traffic Police officer for 20 years, and as such had many dealings with weighing vehicles, and indeed was an authorised dynamic weighbridge operator, authorised by the Department of Transport. In that time I never encountered this interpretation of the regulations.



My opinion is that the police officer has misinterpreted the regulations in this case, however, having read your information, it's there in black and white.



I would be very grateful therefore, if you could advise me which piece of legislation, if any, states that the maximum weight must be subtracted from the train weight to give the maximum trailer weight as stated in your "Towing cars and light vehicles: frequently asked questions" page.

Many thanks."


We'll wait and see what comes back...

[vannut]

Interestingly, as a result of my earlier e-mail on 19th April to Direct.gov, (see page 4 of this thread) the page: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr ... DG_4022708 has been changed!

I got a reply which stated:

"Dear Mr (vannut)

The website you provided the link for was published by the DVLA. You will need to check the accuracy of the information with them."

But having checked the page today the information has been changed and now appears mostly correct!

Result!

Hope we can finally get a definitive answer regarding towing weights! (Don't hold your breath - probably more digging to do yet!)

[whitevanman66]

this is all too confusing for me adding,subtracting ...all i wanna know is ive got a caravan chassis decked out with ply (bed size about 14.5ft x 5ftish) if i put a small car of my own(gordini turbo or mk2 golf) do i :
A need any type of operaters licence
B am i overweight (i know i am im on about the van)

i have a swb mk5 transit 80

if i need any type of licence where do i start to enquire & roughly how much......i passed my test in 89 if that makes any difference as to what would be on my license

[vannut]

this is all too confusing for me adding,subtracting ...all i wanna know is ive got a caravan chassis decked out with ply (bed size about 14.5ft x 5ftish) if i put a small car of my own(gordini turbo or mk2 golf) do i :
A need any type of operaters licence
B am i overweight (i know i am im on about the van)

i have a swb mk5 transit 80

if i need any type of licence where do i start to enquire & roughly how much......i passed my test in 89 if that makes any difference as to what would be on my license

A) You don't need an operator's licence

B) We need to know the weights on the plate of the van to know whether you're overweight

Your licence will cover you if you passed your test in 1989. It's B+E

You need to be careful if your caravan chassis has a plate on - it will have it's own weight limit.

[hillman]

Nice work vannut

please keep at it until its all resolved, so we all know were we stand.

many thanks hillman

[markj]

I got nabbed myself today on the M1 by a Police car containing 1 copper and a VOSA man, my 52 plate 90/350 was unloaded and legal but towing a unloaded trailer rated at 3500kg.
After an escort to Trowbridge services, they asked where I was coming from and all the usual questions, I explained I dropped some motorcycles off in the course of my own business and promptly landed myself with a £200 fixed penalty for having no tacho fitted.
I should have lied and said I just bought the trailer or made something else up but I honestly thought I was ok not being loaded.

Is there a simple answer to continue moving my own goods around with this trailer, tacho,s are easy to come by on ebay, obviously they need fitting, calibrating and the 2 year check but what about operating centres, CPC,s and MOT,s ?
Seems like VOSA are extremely active at the moment, I had been using this trailer a couple of days a month over the last 3 years but several people I know have also had run ins with them recently.

[markj]

Just found a post I missed, perhaps a "restricted national operators licence" and a tacho is my answer and many other peoples.
Is getting one very difficult - anyone know ?