1999 2.5td PATS code 11

[Ged in Oz]

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Hi there. I’ve been battling with a PATS issue on our 1999 2.5td Transit camper for about 3 months now, and getting absolutely nowhere! I’m hoping that someone here might just be able to help me sort it out. I’ve spent a few days searching old threads and I haven’t really found anything to match my issue.

We’ve had the vehicle towed to a couple of mechanics and auto electricians and everyone has pretty much shrugged their shoulders and told us they can’t help. Ford dealers want nothing to do it. Of course.

So, just for some background, this was an English built Squire Herald camper and it was privately imported into Australia about 15 years or so ago. We’ve owned it for about 2 1/2 years and it’s been a solid, reliable old beast, until this problem. I’ve had another 1999 VG Transit 2.5Td (I still have the carcass - 2 of them actually - and plenty of parts available) and I’m pretty sure that it didn’t have the PATS system on it.

The flash code I’m getting is 11? I haven't found any threads on here with a similar code. I’ve been through pretty much every fuse and relay on the vehicle (I’m pretty sure that the 5A PATS system fuse was blown when I first started trying to sort this 3 months ago) but the problem is not going away. There seems to be plenty of reworking of the original wiring loom under the dash, so I suspect this isn’t the first time this problem has surfaced.

If anyone has any experience with this, we’d be much obliged!

[MinorMatt]

Code 11 appears to either be a lack of power to the system, or a faulty transceiver around the barrel.

Check fuses 32 and 33
Double check the PATS module is plugged in
Double check the receiver around the ign barrel is plugged in.

If none of that works - take PATS module off, open the casing and check for damage/corrosion, then replace the transceiver.

If you have a non immobilised ECU (will need a part no starting 97 or 98VB) then this can also be fitted (with a small wiring mod) to remove the immobiliser

[Ged in Oz]

Fantastic! Thanks Matt.

I’ve checked fuses 32 and 33 and they’re good. From memory when I first had this problem, (it’s probably actually longer than 3 months ago now) one of those fuses was blown. They both appear ok now, but they don’t blow out from old age, so something somewhere was, or is awry.

I’ve also checked the fuse and relay located in the box in the engine bay, and I think you’ve pointed other people to that as a possible source of losing PATS system power.

I’ve checked the receiver around the ignition barrel and that looks to be fine, but I haven’t manage to test it. Should there be power at one of those terminals?

Now… the PATS module. Where on earth is it? The only information I’ve found so far has said that it is on the bulkhead somewhere and you need to remove the dash to locate it!? Is that right? I absolutely understand why they make it hard to get to, but surely there’s an easier way?

I did locate the ECU above the glove box on this van a couple of months ago, but from memory it has some other non standard wiring running to it, (a lot like the rates nest under the steering column shroud) so I suspect that this isn’t the first time the ECU/PATS has given trouble.

My 2 spare vans are located in a paddock over at my mates place about an hour or so away, but I’ve got to head over there tomorrow anyway, so I’ll check the numbers and I might grab an ECU out of one of them if they’re comparable.

Thanks very much for your help mate.

[MinorMatt]

The PATS module is between the back of the glovebox and the bulkhead, its a black box about the size of a cigarette packet and is accessible by taking the cubby out of the top of the passenger side dash (which you will need to do to get at the ECU anyway, and do the wiring mod to bypass the PATS)

[Ged in Oz]

Thanks for your help Matt.



Ok, a pleasant day out wandering around in the paddock with the cows and I have 2 Lucas ECU’s with the 98VB parts code now sitting on my bench, (one of the reasons that we bought this Transit camper was that I had lottsa spares stashed in those 2 units that my old mate has been kind enough to keep in his paddock for the last 5 years or so!).

I have now located the PATS module, (I’m not sure how I missed that when I was last in there a few months ago…) and I’ve had a look inside and there is no apparent damage, corrosion or obvious verdigris going on.

There looks to have been plenty of shenanigans going on previously though. That relay under the dash shroud (that is in the first photo that I posted), runs to the green/black wire that disappears behind the ECU there. Any idea what that is going to be?

[Ged in Oz]

So, just further to that last question regarding that relay and the green and black wire… I just looked at the parts code on the ECU unit in the first photo above, and it looks like that is a 98VB ECU as well. I wonder if this van has had a PATS bypassECU swap done previously? Which leads to the next obvious question, what on earth is going on now?

[MinorMatt]

98VB means it was designed to first be used in a '98 model year transit. Its not indicative of any programming and could be set up to be anything - there should be a 2 or 3 letter code written on the orange sticker which tells you the spec, but its often not there/faded away.

The PATS module is not in its original location - so somebody has been fiddling with it too. It may well be that somebody lost the keys in the past and swapped the ECu/PATS modules over.

Assuming the 2 ECUs you have are from vehicles without immobilisers - then replace the one in the van. Making sure its out of gear then put a temporary 12V feed to the small starter motor solenoid and it should fire straight up.

There are a couple of options then for a permeant fix to get it started (leave the non immob ECU in)

1) take the PATS module out, open it up and cut all the wires except the 2 which run the start inhibit relay, and bridge those (I would have to check which ones they are).
2) Remove the PATS module and join the 2 wires which run the start inhibit relay
3) reach down behind the metal plate below the ecu and feel around for the start inhibit relay (its yellow). Break it off its mount, take the relay out of its base and put a small piece of wire between the opposite terminals in the base (the ones that are - | to each other)

[Ged in Oz]

Well, that didn’t really go as I’d hoped. I’ve swapped out the original ECU with both the replacement units and no change. I’m still getting PATS flash code 11. I’ve shorted the starter solenoid and had it turning over, but it won’t fire. I’m assuming it’s not getting fuel.

I’ll be out near my parts vans again next week so I’ll check if the keys have the red chip in them, but I’m 99% sure that neither of them have PATS. I certainly didn’t see a PATS module on either when I was pulling the ECU’s.

I did manage to find and undo the yellow Start Inhibit Relay (that’s a bugga of a spot!) and interestingly, when it came away, the relay wasn’t engaged in the base. There is a retaining clip on it, so I assume it hadn’t just dropped out when I free’d it. I refitted it, no change. I swapped in another relay, no change.

I’m curious about the random extra wire that runs from the relay under the dash shroud (with the 4 red wires… genius wiring scheme) across to above the glove box where it enters into the boot surrounding the ECU connector then spliced into the violet and yellow conductor going into the ECU and also onto the same conductor where its been cut and then goes back into the loom. Hmm, what’s that about? It’s got 12v on it when the ignition is switched on.
‘
Interestingly, while I was poking around with ignition on, I pulled the relay and fuse in the plastic box near the battery, and I could hear a solenoid clicking in and out on the pump. Does that tell us anything? Are there 2 seperate solenoids under there?

Again, thanks for all your help.

[Ged in Oz]

Late afternoon update. I jumpered terminal 3 and 5 on the start inhibitor relay, shorted the starter terminals and she fired straight up! I think that’s the first time I’ve heard her run in probably 6 months. It gives me hope!

Now, to get it starting on the key….

[MinorMatt]

Interesting,

The starter inhibit relay wiring change should be all you needed to have done. I am just wondering if someone has installed a "hidden switch" or aftermarket immobiliser downstream of the relay?

You could try bypassing the extra relay in the same fashion and see what happens?

[Ged in Oz]

Yep, I’ll try that as well Matt. Lord only knows what the hell has gone on in there previously. It certainly isn’t a PATS virgin by any stretch of the imagination. I like your theory of lost keys at some point…. that would explain a few things.

I haven’t mentioned it previously, but this poor old girl is almost 3 months out of registration and we have a 3 month window here before you have to “go over the pits” to reregister, and with the private import status of this van, that could well be a major pain in the butt!

She’s booked in for the normal annual inspection in 4 days time, (just before the window closes) so hopefully I can get her buttoned back up, starting on the key and wizz through inspection. It still only has 75000 miles on it and it’s basically as tight as a fish’s bum. It’s a great old van.

You know, I keep looking at that PATS module and the way it’s been bodged and diddled with, and it’s got to a be a prime suspect doesn’t it? I know that solid state stuff is highly reliable, but that poor old thing has been in and out (obviously) and bouncing around for who knows how long. I see there is a module on eBay in the UK with the same numbers on it for about 20 quid or so - there’s 2 actually, a new one and a used one. If I replaced that, would that require reprogramming keys and that whole sorry tale?

Thank you so much for all your help mate! Your a dead set bloody legend.

[MinorMatt]

Don't even think about changing that - unless you have the matching ECU & keys

What you could do (and its not something I normally advise) is put a reasonable size wire directly between the terminal on the starter motor and the crank position wire on ignition switch (Unfortunately I couldn't tell you which one it is...)

Lots of people have done this in the past without issue (a previous owner did it to a vehicle I had too) and I have never heard of an issue, but I don't like the idea of that much current going through the switch. (not sure how much the solenoid takes - but there is a big spark when you flash it!)

[Ged in Oz]

Right, I took the spare Inhibit relay that I had, and I gutted it shorting the two I — terminals and soldering them together and I replaced the breadboard jumper cable (!) that I’d had in the relay base yesterday. All good, that worked nicely as a long term solution, so then I set about finding the starter wire on the key switch so that I could put a relay on it and I accidentally shorted 2 terminals with my test light and Lo and behold, the starter motor jumped! Sure enough, it just started straight up on the key. Bingo!

You’re a legend Matt! Thank you soooo much for your help. I, (and half a dozen mechanics and auto electricians who’ve looked at it over the past 6 months) had been totally stumped. I can’t thank you enough mate.

I’ve got the weekend now to give her a wash and a clean, check all the lights and horns etc and get her all ship shape and ready for inspection mid next week. I’ll let you know how we go.

I’m really looking forward to getting her back on the road and putting some miles under her wheels again! My Mrs and I and the 3 dogs have had some great trips in her over the past couple of years and it’s been really depressing having her sat there in the yard for 6 months not having a solution to this bloody problem. Thanks mate.

[MinorMatt]

Its just knowing the system and I'm the idiot that has spent far too much time working out what is what with the EPIC!

I ended up sorting out keys for someone yesterday who was struggling to find any "generic" person to do the job

[Ged in Oz]

Generic person…. Haha. You’re clearly not that Matt! I’m very grateful that you managed to share your epic EPIC knowledge with me and I guess plenty of other people here are too! Good onya mate. Thank you.

The great news is that she managed to breeze through annual inspection and she’s back on the road for another 12 months! Well, 9 months actually… she was almost 3 months overdue for rereg because no one on the planet except MinorMatt knew how to get it going!!!!

Thank you buddy, forever grateful!