Leaking roof - need advice

[ChrisJH]

I have a Dec 2022 registered Ford Transit Custom-based Nugget, short wheelbase, that is now one month out of warranty. That's become a problem as I have to deal with what would otherwise be a warranty issue, with a leaking room. The real problem is:

The leak appears to be from where a bracket for the awning is bolted onto the roof towards the rear, so it is leaking (badly) into the wardrobe area. The bracket itself is made by Thule, fitted by Westfalia to a Ford roof, and nobody seems willing to help even with information. It's pretty bad for a relatively new vehicle. I'm hoping someone has some experience here.

This is not a question about how to fix it (though ideas follow) or a warranty issue, as it will have to be me doing this. It's whether anyone has ever had to remove an awning from a Nugget. Here's my difficulty:

The bracket itself, which I assume should be stainless steel, tucks under the closed poptop and is totally rusty across its entire surface. It is held on by three bolts, two on top and one on the side of the van, so Westfalia will have drilled these holes and used a sealant to bed the bracket, and this has failed. If I could unbolt the bracket (on the face of it, this should be simple) I could treat any rust and/or buy a new bracket from Thule, and seal it again. BUT, there is no access to the inside nuts without removing the entire wardrobe and associated cladding/plastic trim. I fear that Westfalia will have fitted the bracket, then installed the trip, meaning that if I unbolt it the nuts fall off and I cannot put it back. Or, just possibly, the nuts are welded in place and this is not a problem.

Thoughts are welcome, but the real question is only whether anyone knows if those nuts are welded on or not.

Thanks in advice, sincerely, for any responses

[metalworker0]

Can you take a picture of it .. i suspect without seeing it that the nuts will be Rivnuts and will stay in place .. ford holds the bulkheads behind drivers seat in place with hexagon rivnuts in hexagon holes, what your conversion company did is anyone's guess.

https://www.huyett.com/blog/rivet-nuts- ... rTjxvO_pOH


all the best.mark

[ChrisJH]

Thanks for idea. I do need a photo, but it's been pouring with rain since finding this and I need a bit better weather before taking it. At present I have duct tape across the whole area to try to protect it.

There's no bulkhead of course and no conversion company involved - this is a Nugget, sold out of the standard catalogue by Ford, which uses Westfalia to make the conversion and Westfalia uses Tule for the awning, which Westfalia fits before shipping to Ford. Tule diagrams show loose nuts, but Westfalia could have substituted these with something more suited to a situation where the awning might need to be removed.

Ford says nothing to do with them, out of warranty. Thule hasn't (yet) answered an email about the quality of the bracket (which surely should not have totally rusted up). Westfalia, from experience, refuses to talk to end customers, only to dealers (but experience says Ford dealers cannot get answers either). Westfalia hasn't answered, at any rate.

I'll investigate Rivnuts (not heard of those before).

[ChrisJH]

It might be that your suggestion is hugely helpful. Rivnuts would work, and if not already there could be fitted if needed if loose nuts fall off. I'm chasing Thule and Ford to try to find more details of the fitting.

[ChrisJH]

In case this helps anyone else with the same problem:

For the Nugget, the awning seems to be the Thule 4200, but fitted with a specific adaptor bracket made by Thule. For the L1, short wheelbase, the part is https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009. These are supposed to be (from an FAQ):

"Is the mounting kit weather resistant? Yes, the materials used are rust-free and suitable for permanent outdoor use.
Thanks to the robust, stainless materials, the assembly kit is well protected against weather conditions. Rain, humidity and temperature fluctuations do not affect stability or function. This ensures long-term use without readjustment or material fatigue."

Clearly, not up to it after only 3 years (see photo).

But with the helpful hint about rivnuts and thus something to look for, it is pretty clear that these are used for the fitting (looking at a photo of the installation kit). At around Euro 200 for the 'stainless steel kit' I'll be treating the rust then using Hammerite before refitting with new 221 sealant, hopefully with not too much damage below the bracket.

Thanks again to metalworker0 for the hint.

Chris

[metalworker0]

The bolts are stainless steel, but i don't think the bracket is, looks like electroplated steel. probably nickel plated.

Easy way to tell, some stainless steels are completely non magnetic and some are slightly more magnetic.
You'll see the difference, if the painted metal beside it,has stronger attraction to a magnet than the so called stainless bracket.

if magnet sticks to bracket with same intensity as the surrounding painted area , then the bracket is plated mild steel.

all the best.mark

[metalworker0]

in this kit you linked to ----- link didn't work . and number didn't work,. but i put the ebay number into google .. didn't work in the main search, but worked in the image search and found your listing


bag of bolts ..and i see the closed cell foam sticky back sealing strips that were not used on yours .. i also see one of the rivnuts

Code: Select all

https://www.neils-und-kraft.shop/images/product_images/original_images/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009-2.jpg


https://www.neils-und-kraft.shop/images/product_images/original_images/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009-1.jpg


 main page

https://www.neils-und-kraft.shop/montagesatz-fuer-markise-thule-nugget-ad-https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqDNqIeI9yLGxjeaEu5baik-WbMgvDBkZyaFFv57h7vKbJQ_g1j

code because forum broke the links

all the best.mark

[metalworker0]

try again

https://www.neils-und-kraft.shop/images/product_images/original_images/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009-2.jpg


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009-1.jpg">https://www.neils-und-kraft.shop/images ... 8009-1.jpg


main page

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqDNqIeI9yLGxjeaEu5baik-WbMgvDBkZyaFFv57h7vKbJQ_g1j">https://www.neils-und-kraft.shop/montag ... 7vKbJQ_g1j

i give up it keeps putting ebay stuff into it .... when go back to edit the ebay stuff not there

all the best.mark

[ChrisJH]

I've also failed with the links! But the photo I saw for the package of bits included, in a bag, rivnuts. But I now have a reply from Thule that might help anyone else with the same problem (it seems common with VW eqivalents):

"Very sorry to hear about the issue you are having with your vehicle and awning installation.

"I am also sorry to tell you that I cannot really support in the matter. The brackets in question is indeed a Westfalia exclusive. We are purely a manufacturer of these but what it also means is that they are produced on the specifications of Westfalia and all technical data, spare parts and other aftersales matters are then exclusive to them.

"Our inhouse adapters are made of aluminium and thus they do not rust. My best guess is that the installation in question was not carried out to standard but I must remain neutral in the matter and further advise you make contact with a different Ford dealer or keep up with Westfalia. I simply do not have the tools or direct access to the problem as to assess this from here."

Then, having seen the photo:

"This adapter is not ours at all. It is a Westfalia adapter, and regarding the fit it would then have to be a Westfalia answer. We never even produced this ..."

It seems that the Thule aluminium adaptor will not fit the same holes, and Westfalia (instead of Thule) have produced steel adaptor brackets that are not up to the job, at least in my case. A replacement kit for part https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009&seller=&toolid=10018&39199485" rel="nofollow">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281009248009 (which is only for the short wheelbase Nugget) costs Euro 200 and is not readily available in the UK.

[metalworker0]

The only other suggestion i can make, and make them yourself.. looks about 3mm thick to me

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261219614699?

select 3mm x 200mm x 300mm
£16 .91

Note - stainless steel is hard to work with... you will not cut this with tin snips, you are cutting it it angle grinder with thin blade.. then you need a hand bending machine or vice that you can form the bends on and a pillar drill.

or hammerite them every few years

to seal

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115738286602?


Yeah, when i was searching yesterday, I see the Thule brackets and they are nothing like your Westfalia...The Thule ones are aluminium extrusions.

The link i found eventually to the kit you mentioned, IS the only instance on the net of this kit. language i think is German .. and it sort of looks second hand / used to me .


all the best.mark

[ChrisJH]

Thanks again - and you have made me think in new ways. Cutting is no problem (I have an angle grinder). I have a vice, though bending sounds difficult; drill is not a problem. A good idea for me to muse upon.

Thule uses Sika 221 to bed the plate, rather than foam (at this end of the awning). It looks like the two rivnuts leave the fitting slightly proud, so they bed it in this way to fill the gap. Foam would also do it, but I already have a tube of 221 ...

[metalworker0]

The sika stuff (like tigerseal) is used to hold yacht keels on along with the bolts .. so both a seal and a glue .. and it may be hard to unbond in the future.

all the best.mark

[ChrisJH]

I have an update with what I have learned on this journey to fix a leaking roof, in the hope it might help someone else. That is, though this is a short wheelbase Transit Custom, it's been fitted out by Westfalia (ad sold off the page by Ford), it involves more than Ford itself.

I'vew discovered how difficult it is to work through a problem that involves three companies, even when only one is responsible (Ford, because they took the money). As a resume:

A major leak was discovered in the rear right area of the Transit, leaking into the Nugget wardrobe area. Because the wardrope and verious bits of cladding over the inside of the roof, there was no visible sign of exactly where water was penetrating. But, on the outside a bracket holding the awning (made by Thule and fitted by Westfalia) was rusty. I had to assume that this was likely linked to the leak (it approximated clsely to where water drained on the inside - not a drip, literally ran down the wall to be mopped up by towels and wrung out). I needed information:

Thule was most helpful and confirmed they supplied Westfalia brackets made to their specification, but considered this was not one they had made (using a photo) as, aside from anything else, their brackets were made from non-rusting alloy. They couldn't comment on the fixing because they didn't fit it (fair enough), but confirmed that they used a Sika adhesive to back up the fittings, which were two allen key bolts into rivnuts.

I contacted Westfalia, which refused to respond. I contacted Westfalia reps in the UK, but although sympathetic, all related that I had to go through the Ford dealer. Ford didn't want to know: the leak and rust was found one month outside standard 3 year warranty, and Westfalia's warranty was only two years (poor, that the major fittins are not the same as for the vehicle). I pointed out that leaking like this from a rsty bracket would come under the longer warranty afforded bodyrowrk and leaks, and in any case under the 'fit for purpose' law covering goods for siz years under UK law.

While arguing to try to get anyone to even look at this, I needed to find out how the bracket was fixed, being concerned that perhaps it was a simple bolt that meant releasing the bracket would mean I might not be able to put it back, and in any case the Sika 221 would make it impossible to remove. I did, in my searches, find a company in the USA which made a product they said would release the adhesive: DeBond Marine Formula (available in the UK via Ireland; it isn;'t liseted as good for 221, but I was told it would work).

Then Ford Bridgend, the dealer, said that if I took i the Nugget and left it with them for three days, they would try to sort out the lak. Drove it down, found out only then that it would cost me many pounds and they would do a leak test. I saw no point in this waste of time: I knew it leaked and without removing the wardrobe (which they said they would not do), there was no point as it would still not show where the leak occurred. In any case, the rusty bracket needed to be sorted out. I left; later, Ford said that nothing more would be done. Down to me alone.

I released both allen key bolts (thanks to the hint on this forum, I confirm they are into rivnuts) and to my surprise found there was no Sika adhesive underneath.The third bolt, to the side as a support, does not penetrate the metal but is a grip onto a plastic glued-on slot. Underneath, a darker paint around the rivnut holes suggests an anti-rust treatment where the holes were drilled.

Which left me trying to find a potential leak point: nothing was obvious, but it had to be high up (above window level and not involving the poptop). There wre two possible points to try: water penetrating past the rivnuts or, just possibly, where a plastic trim was pop-riveted to the side (the rivnuts seemed more likely). I bought some Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure, which is like a white watery 'glue' that is supposed to find any small bracks or leaks, enter and set. Seemed worth a go, so I applied this around the rivnuts and for good measure along the trim and even the window tops. Befure the allen key nuts went back in, I put a small amount of silicone grease into the bottom of the hole. It didn't feel like there was anything more I could try for.

The bracket: this was cleaned off, rust treated and them hammertites white before it was put back. It is possible to buy a replacement, as a set of two, for 200 Euros, but only in the EU. So far, no more leaks, but there again, no major storm.

What I have learned:

Ford was not helpful over this; Westfalia was a waste of time. This felt as though it went beyond the standard warranty period even based on the rusty bracket.

It looks hopeful that tne Captain Tolley's cure is working, though not conclusively, but I'd try it again if not. It seems a good product.

To my surprise, speaking to a different dealer speciallising in campervans (not just the Nugget), having only recently updated and imporved the design, Ford has suddenly dropped all Nugget production, I am told. As I write, I am told a few still onn order are being shipped, but no more orders were being taken, a shame as the internal design is both unusual and good.

Photos show an update stated of the bracket (now even rustier), the fixing points, a cluse-up of the rivnuts, and the Hammerited bracket (I failed to reease ot from the awning, as the rust was too solid - WD40 failed to help, and attempts were burring the allen key hole, so I stopped trying).

Something in here might help someone, sometime.

[metalworker0]

As well as tiger seal or sika seal there is an alternative, if you want sealing without them being hard to remove -- that is "plumbers mate"

Also the braketry looks easy enough to make out of stainless .. like i said, stainless sheet available on ebay .. you are not going to cut it with a hacksaw or tin-snips- too tough .. it's an angle grinder job .
tools needed: angle grinder , drill - preferably plller drill, and vice to bend it

what Horrible after sales service from all --- post in large caravanning / mororhome magazine or forum ... embarrass them all, find reviews site and give them a negative review.

all the best.mark