2.0 EcoBlue sudden stall – cranks with no compression, air l

[Fimechanic]

Hi, I have a 2.0 EcoBlue Transit with approximately 160,000 km and I am looking for some advice regarding a sudden no-start and apparent loss of compression.

The van had been parked over the weekend. On Monday it started immediately, drove approximately 10 metres and then suddenly stopped. After that it would not restart. During cranking, the engine turned unusually fast and sounded exactly like an engine with a broken timing belt or very low compression.

We removed the engine because we expected to find a failed wet belt. However:

* The timing belt was intact.
* The mechanical timing checked correctly with the locking tools.
* Both camshafts were rotating.
* The engine could be turned unusually easily by hand using the crank pulley. There were some compression points, but much less resistance than I normally expect from a diesel engine.

We removed the camshafts and found one intake-side hydraulic lash adjuster completely collapsed. It has approximately 5mm of movement and that intake valve was effectively not being opened. Some of the other lash adjusters have approximately 1 mm of movement, while others are firm.

I then carried out an improvised cylinder leak-down test at approximately 4 bar with the camshafts removed:

* All four cylinders have a similar amount of leakage into the crankcase.
* Adding oil to the cylinders did not noticeably reduce the leakage.
* Very little air can be heard through the exhaust.
* Air can clearly be heard and felt coming through the intake manifold/throttle body on all four cylinders.
* The EGR and all external intake pipes were disconnected, but the air still comes through the intake.
* If a glove was fitted over the intake opening, the leakage would slowly inflate it.

The engine has previously been run low on coolant several times and may have overheated in the past. The oil-pump pickup was also partially restricted, although not completely blocked.

I understand that a small amount of leak-down is normal, but I would not expect clear airflow through the intake valves on all four cylinders when the camshafts are removed.

The main thing I am trying to understand is whether the intake-valve leakage explains the original sudden stall and fast cranking, or whether the original no-start could have been a separate fuel/electrical issue.

Any experience with the same symptoms would be greatly appreciated, especially from anyone who has stripped one of these engines and found the final cause. Thanks.

[metalworker0]

i believe some had valve seats that eroded.

search.php?keywords=valve+seats&terms=all&author=&fid%5B%5D=65&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Your oil pick up blocked .. that's a wet belt failure, even though still intact .. and you caught it in time .. but other stuff .. is it time for a new or recon engine , you could rebuild it all yourself with ford parts would be ££££££.... with other parts it would be perhaps not be long lasting. if rebuilding .. because of the belt debris , it has to stripped down to the bare block to clean oil gallerias, crank out clean crank galleries , replace oil jets ..lots of work

There are dozens of "blocks only" on ebay that suggests this is more widespread than you think

There are no figures here or anywhere, on what leak down pressures should be, the test is usually carried out just to confirm escaping air. pin point where compression is being lost. it would not surprise me if head gasket gone between cylinders and head is warped. or the head warpage and overheating events have caused extra pressure on the camshafts and its spun the camshaft lobes. -- the lobes are a press fit on the shaft. overheating can cause valve seats to fall out .

The valve hydraulic lifters .. well they do leak down, especially if it has a valve lobe pressing on it .. and only stay pressurised when engine is running .. what you have there with the one that is leaked down fully, is one that is failing or has belt debris in it.

all the best.mark

[Fimechanic]

Thanks Mark. We have now removed the cylinder head and tested it with the valves and springs still fitted. All the valves leak, but interestingly the intake valves leak considerably more than the exhaust valves.

There are no visible signs of piston-to-valve contact and the valves do not appear obviously bent. Could eroded intake valve seats explain why the engine suddenly stopped and then cranked as though it had no compression?

[metalworker0]

I don't know about the suddenness of it .. seams odd.. unless a lot of things have added up at the same time.

Your examination of things will confirm what has happened

This will be looking at the head gasket .. using a strait edge on the block and the head, looking at the valve seats.
Most of the stuff about the valve seats Seems to be in facebook, that i don't have access to .. as not a member, when i do have it access.. no real detail , not good enough advice .. people only willing to put so many words in, because they surf on the mobile and cant be bothered with the struggle to type.. that's facebook for you,, same with the tik tok thing. and beginning to happen here .. with people moving away from the PCs and using mobiles.

Intake valves , not sure if the EGR re-circulation has a bearing on this .. depositing of gunge on them and starting off the process of valves staying slightly open and seats getting burned.

Owners of EGR equipped vehicles sick of the expense and probably ignoring servicing of the EGR system is not helping. and when you pile on DPF faults, adblue faults .. running one of these vans can empty your pockets fast add to that the wetbelt worry!

We can see here cases of this first happening with cold starting issues .. taking a long time to fire up.. due to low compression.


Bore wear
And then is the DPF regeneration, via fords wacky idea of squirting in fuel into cylinder on the exhaust stroke, i don't know much about this or how it would effect intake valves .. would have to give you an AI description of it .. you can do that yourself .. but it was found that if a lot of re-gens were happening and failing to complete .. one after another .. BORE WASH WOULD RESULT..leading to worn bores and pistons and oil dilution.
There was a ford software update for this .. not sure of years involved.

all the best.mark

[Frag]

Have a read of this and my reply,cba to type it out again…
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=236047

[Fimechanic]

Thanks, Mark. A Ford technician I know told me that these engines can suffer from piston-ring problems. He suggested testing them by pouring petrol into each cylinder and monitoring how quickly it drains past the pistons into the crankcase. According to him, if the petrol remains in the cylinders for a reasonable amount of time, the rings are unlikely to be worn badly enough to cause a no-start condition.

I carried out this test and the result appeared to be okay, although I will still measure all four cylinder bores accurately for wear, taper and ovality, just to rule this out completely.

At the moment, the considerably heavier leakage past the intake valves still appears to be the main cause of the low compression.

[Fimechanic]

Thanks Frag. What actually causes a perfectly healthy Panther engine to temporarily lose almost all compression and spin over so freely? Is it related to the hydraulic tappets holding the valves open, cylinder bore wash, or something else?

Unfortunately, we did not carry out the starting procedure you described. Looking back, we may have removed the engine too quickly without performing enough diagnostic tests, which was a mistake. It is possible that the engine might have started and recovered as you described.

However, it was definitely cranking far too easily, indicating very low compression. With the cylinder head removed, all the valves leak during a bench test, especially the intake valves. Could poor valve sealing alone cause the engine to crank as if it had almost no compression, or would you expect another temporary issue to be involved as well?

[Frag]

I believe it’s an issue with the hydraulic tappets jacking open…

There can’t be anything else,that will lose all compression completely ….

But then you can get running again and have no issues whatsoever

[Altransit]

Just to save linking to another thread ..........................

You’ll be pleased to know,a perfectly timed panther with no issues can do this at any point….

Usually if stalled just after started when cold,or if revved up and then cut out.
If the battery is flat or low,or slow cranking speed also makes this problem worse.
It will spin over with no compression at all.

Best thing to do,get a boost pack or charger on,keep cycling the ignition on and off(without cranking,this runs the in tank fuel pump for 30 seconds) for say 4/5 times,then try to start it,it will slowly start to pick up 1 cylinder at a time,and hopefully fire before you reach 10 no starts and get a ‘crank time exceeded’ message and have to wait 30 mins.

If there is something wrong with the timing,you’ll usually get a service now message and spanner on dash when cranking.
But if you don’t have that,try the above.
Keep pressing throttle while cranking and listen to engine,IF it starts,try to hold it at around 2k,don’t rev it and don’t let it idle straight away,if it cuts out your back to square 1 again.
Once it’s run for 2/3 minutes,slowly let it down to idle,let it run a while before keying it off.

[metalworker0]

well its the first time of heard of tappets jacking open
unless he means staying inflated .. as in not draining back .. because of blockage of drain hole
just my opinion.


note .. your cams and rockers are off and the valves are still leaking .. so cant be that in your case

.

all the best.mark

[Frag]

If he had kept trying it as described,it would have started back up and he wouldn’t have his engine out and in pieces….
Yes the valves may be leaking,but that wasn’t the cause of his issue at the time.

It’s a panther thing,and no-one’s ever explained what’s happening,but it has to be valves being held open by followers as there is NO compression whatsoever,yet as you crank it eventually it will ‘come back around’
What else can do that ?
It may be related to oil pressure ?
It won’t even put fault codes in and there’s no permanent fix as such…

I had a ranger do it Friday,started straight up then started missing and cut out,spun over with no comp.
Coaxed it back into life and did a 12 mile roadtest no problems

Happens 2/3 times a week on different vehicles.
As I’ve said,usually on a cold start or if you stall it,low weak battery makes it worse / more likely to happen.
If the battery is poor you will not get it to restart without help.

[Fimechanic]

Thank you both. I believe there may actually be two separate but related problems in my case.

There was a considerable amount of wet-belt debris in the oil pickup, and finer particles had passed through the strainer. I suspect this contamination may have entered the oil galleries and affected the hydraulic tappets, possibly preventing them from bleeding down correctly and temporarily holding some valves open.

One intake tappet was completely soft and had clearly failed. The glow plug from that same cylinder was also noticeably more sooted than the others, suggesting that this cylinder may have had a valve-opening or combustion problem for some time. A collapsed tappet would not explain the sudden loss of compression on all cylinders, but it confirms that something is wrong within the hydraulic tappet or lubrication system.

At the same time, Mark is correct that the tappets cannot explain everything in my case: with the camshafts and rockers removed, the valves still leak, especially the intake valves. Therefore, the cylinder head also appears to have a genuine valve or valve-seat sealing problem.

My current theory is that the leaking intake valves had already reduced the available compression, while oil contamination and hydraulic tappet behaviour may have caused the sudden, temporary loss of almost all compression after the cold stall.

The cylinder head is going for dismantling, inspection, pressure testing and machining on Monday. I will also thoroughly clean the oil system and inspect or replace the affected tappets before rebuilding the engine.

It is a very difficult and unusual case, but hopefully we will find the complete explanation. I will update the thread once the cylinder head has been inspected and the engine has been reassembled.

[Frag]

If he had kept trying it as described,it would have started back up and he wouldn’t have his engine out and in pieces….
Yes the valves may be leaking,but that wasn’t the cause of his issue at the time.

It’s a panther thing,and no-one’s ever explained what’s happening,but it has to be valves being held open by followers as there is NO compression whatsoever,yet as you crank it eventually it will ‘come back around’
What else can do that ?
It may be related to oil pressure ?
It won’t even put fault codes in and there’s no permanent fix as such…

I had a ranger do it Friday,started straight up then started missing and cut out,spun over with no comp.
Coaxed it back into life and did a 12 mile roadtest no problems

Happens 2/3 times a week on different vehicles.
As I’ve said,usually on a cold start or if you stall it,low weak battery makes it worse / more likely to happen.
If the battery is poor you will not get it to restart without help.

We’ve had vehicles recovered in by all the big names stating cambelt has broken,put the booster pack on and coaxed them back to life and driven them in,replaced the knackered battery and sent them back out…..

[Frag]

When they start to lose compression,whether it’s from valve sealing or bore wash / pistons,first sign is they are difficult to start from cold or first start of the day,but fine after that,then next day your back to square one.
We would do a comp test,if it’s low and it usually is at that point,we would then do a leak down test which may help decide if it’s valves (leaking out of inlet or exhaust manifolds) or bottom end,which would come through oil filler cap,dipstick or breather.

[Fimechanic]

I agree that the original sudden no-compression event was probably the Panther issue you described. The engine had started immediately from cold before it stalled, so I doubt that normal wear or the leaking valves alone caused the sudden complete loss of compression.

The valve leakage and failed tappet are still genuine problems that need repairing, but they may have already been present before this happened.

I will also measure all four cylinder bores before reassembly. I would prefer not to remove the pistons unless the measurements show a problem, as I believe the upper sump also has to be removed to take them out.