2.5Di banana engine won't start after cambelt change

[hetman]

I'll have a look tomorrow as i may still have a timing belt book that will have your van in it, if i have I'll DM you with pictures for future reference,
What dumper was saying.....
when belt is off and pump bolts are slack position the sprocket/gear so that the bolts are in the centre of the slots when fitting belt on, this allows adjustment in both directions if need be
NOT SURE IF DRAWING HELPS UNDERSTAND WHAT WE MEAN

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Yes, sir. Gotcha! Now I understand what you were referring to.

And I will need to remove the cambelt in order to make this adjustment, correct? I can't merely loosen the injection pump bolts, reposition it and tighten? I must remove the belt and repeat this procedure?

I will try to access this without opening the cooling system (removing the radiator), if possible.

[andz327]

You may have enough slack to lift belt off enough to move sprocket, try it before stripping it all down if you can

ANDZ

[hetman]

You may have enough slack to lift belt off enough to move sprocket, try it before stripping it all down if you can

ANDZ

Yes sir! Thx

[hetman]

Gentlemen, this van has turned into a fantastic adventure. My exasperation level has reached an all-time high, and my patience an all-time low. I'm not one to give up so easily, but sometimes I get the feeling I should just junk it. However, economic realities (and the hope that I will still be able to salvage the situation) force me to press on. The van is vital to me, and due to the house arrest forced upon the entire population of the world, I have lost all my income, and have no savings on top of that (due to a divorce and my ex having stolen all I ever had including the house I built worth a couple hundred thousand quid). I hope to find some other occupation, as mine has been eliminated by decree.

In any case, I decided to go back to square one, by removing all the equipment (grill, radiator, fan belts, pulley, etc), in order to have the room to do it correctly. So, I did all that and during the final stage of tightening the cambelt, as listed in Haynes, to turn the engine clockwise 1 7/8 turn before retightening the belt the final time by loosening and then tightening the adjusting pulley (with the sping on it). However, now the crankshaft won't turn at all (after turning a few degrees), and I felt the bolt on the crankshaft pulley tighten, so it's definitely overtorqued. The engine won't turn further, and of course all pegs are out and the tranny is in neutral.

Let me back up.... when I was removing the cambelt itself, I believe it was much further out of adjustment than the imagined 1 tooth, which would be a couple degrees at most. From what I can see, it seemed more like 20 degrees off. This is after I pegged the rear flywheel hole. So in my estimation, somehow, somewhere, something went wrong. Perhaps when I was aligning things last time, that peg in the flywheel might have come out? It's a possibility. In any case, it would seem that one of those 3 pegs was not aligned. I did make sure the two front pegs were aligned properly, and that would leave the rear peg as the culprit. In which case the timing was off by 20 degrees or more. It still ran, however.

So, with the flywheel peg in, I physically turned the cam pulley around that 20 degrees and lined it up with the hole and pegged it. Then I lined up the injection pump hole and pegged it. It was slightly off. Unless, of course, it was way, way off and now it's in the wrong hole? Because I did notice that it seems to have a lot of travel from side to side after I loosened those injection pump pulley bolts. I can't honestly say, without any experience with this engine.

So, my questions are: what went wrong, and how do I fix it without doing any harm to the engine? I imagine that I will have to make sure the engine is at TDC on the first piston, then make sure that the cam pulley is also lined up properly, and then make sure the injection pump is lined up properly. But how do I determine those things? I will have to remove the pulleys themselves on the cam? And/or the injection pump?

Thanks for your help.

[knobby1]

If the engine "locks up" whilst turning the crank...the cam timing is incorrect and you probably have pistons hitting valves.

Lord Knobrot

[dumper]

When you put all the pegs in undid the pump drive then re fitted the belt and set the tensioner you say it is the older type with the spring that should automatically set the tension unlike the later type that you have to lock off adjust until the dots line up with the old type adjuster I move it against the spring tension all the way off and then lock it into position with the 13 mil spanner size bolt then with the pegs in place and the bolts slack on the pump drive undo the 13 mil bolt to let the tensioner tightened the belt then tighten both the tensioner bolts to fully tight then tighten up the pump drive bolts remove the pins with everything tighten up turn the engine over two full turns and refit the pins if you have done it right they should go straight back in you should only need to slacken anything off if they don’t go back in .
The only time I have had to re tension the belt after is with the latter type with the two dots you line up .
Also you say the crankshaft centre bolt tighten up when you had a spanner on it that has a very high torque on it to tighten it up as it also clamps the oil pump drive gear to the crankshaft have you slackened it off to change a belt you don’t need to do that to put the belt on .
And when you say the pump bolts you don’t mean the bolts that hold the pump on the engine .
As for tdc when the peg is in the flywheel number one and number for are both at tdc it’s the position of the camshaft that dictates if number one is on Compression or exhaust stroke .
Before you try to start it I’d have the rocker cover off and have a look inside just in case you have damaged anything and do the tappits while your in their.

[hetman]

If the engine "locks up" whilst turning the crank...the cam timing is incorrect and you probably have pistons hitting valves.

Lord Knobrot

That's what I guessed immediately, and stopped to give you gents my report. Which would mean that when I took off the cambelt today, and moved the cam pulley and/or the injection pump pulley, I could have moved them in the wrong direction, correct?

Which leads me to one other thing that has got me confused: the flywheel hole in which the dowel should be placed. Rather, the hole in the transmission bell housing through which the dowel should be placed to fit into the hole in the flywheel which locks it up. Haynes has a drawing of this hole in their instructions, and according to this drawing, it is a hole near the side/edge of the housing. However, I took a mirror and lamp today to locate such a hole, and looked (and felt with my hand along the whole upper range of the bell housing), and could find NO SUCH hole located there. The manual says it's "above the starter" but I found no hole in that location. Well, there is a hole, but it's blocked by the opposite side of the clutch lever fork inside the housing (180 degrees opposite of where the clutch cable attaches to this clutch lever (which releases the throwout bearing). So..... what gives? The only hole I could find, and I have been using it to peg the flywheel, is near the top of the bell housing and located further aft, towards the driveshaft, and that makes sense because a hole located where the drawing depicts it would be too far away from the flywheel to even engage it; it would miss the flywheel altogether. So I think I have the right hole, and sticking my peg (big, long phillips screwdriver) inside does meet up with a hole in the flywheel at about the 12:00 position of the fuel injection pump pulley. So I imagine I"m doing it correctly there, but I'm very open to other opinions.

Should I take pictures of my Haynes manual to show you all?

[Keef]

The hole is shown at 31 seconds in this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Xe6otUTUQ

[dumper]

The peg hole is just above the starter motor top bolt when new they had a plastic plug in them with a tit on them to grab hold of you say you used a Philips screwdriver that is not big enough you need the proper peg or a drill bit of the correct size can’t remember size but somewhere near 1/2 inch you don’t peg it from the gearbox side/bell housing no where near driveshaft.

[hetman]

When you put all the pegs in undid the pump drive then re fitted the belt and set the tensioner you say it is the older type with the spring that should automatically set the tension unlike the later type that you have to lock off adjust until the dots line up with the old type adjuster I move it against the spring tension all the way off and then lock it into position with the 13 mil spanner size bolt then with the pegs in place and the bolts slack on the pump drive undo the 13 mil bolt to let the tensioner tightened the belt then tighten both the tensioner bolts to fully tight then tighten up the pump drive bolts remove the pins with everything tighten up turn the engine over two full turns and refit the pins if you have done it right they should go straight back in you should only need to slacken anything off if they don’t go back in .
The only time I have had to re tension the belt after is with the latter type with the two dots you line up .
Also you say the crankshaft centre bolt tighten up when you had a spanner on it that has a very high torque on it to tighten it up as it also clamps the oil pump drive gear to the crankshaft have you slackened it off to change a belt you don’t need to do that to put the belt on .
And when you say the pump bolts you don’t mean the bolts that hold the pump on the engine .
As for tdc when the peg is in the flywheel number one and number for are both at tdc it’s the position of the camshaft that dictates if number one is on Compression or exhaust stroke .
Before you try to start it I’d have the rocker cover off and have a look inside just in case you have damaged anything and do the tappits while your in their.

Let me try to wade through all your notes...

Yes, the tensioner has a strong spring, and two 13mm bolts. Haynes describes this type of tensioner and no other (well, they talk about some differences in engines with the Lucas pump system, but I have a Bosch banana engine: is this the difference you speak of?). Haynes describes the need to, after the initial tightening of the belt, to rotate the crank 1 7/8 turns, then loosen this tensioner, and allow it to adjust it again. But as you mention, if it is under tension due to the spring, why would it need to be retightened? Doesn't make sense but that's what Haynes said to do. Should I take a picture of my Haynes manual? It's for the British market and describes our vans with the diesel engine only, and is a hardback edition.

I never slackened that center bolt which drives the crankshaft pulley (and crank, etc). Today for the first time I experienced it getting torqued as I tried to begin that rotation to check to see if everything is OK (as the final step in the whole process). Prior to that, when the belt was still on and bolts tight, I was able to move it around normally (with the transmission in neutral, of course). Oh, one more thing. I don't believe this could have caused any damage, but when I started the procedure today, I forgot that it was in gear, and I noticed, of course, when I tried to rotate the crank and it moved a few degrees and stopped. Then I remembered it was in gear, and put it in neutral, and proceeded without incident: the crank moved around normally, with the belts on, prior to loosening anything. That's how I got it to TDC, and pegged the flywheel hole, and then noticed that the other two holes in the front pulleys were off by 15-20 degrees. So I knew I had made some mistake last week, and when I removed the cambelt, I simply rotated both the cam pulley and the pump pulley enough to peg them. Perhaps I moved one or both in the wrong direction, vis-a-vis the crank/flywheel. Is that plausible?

Correct, I mean the bolts that attach the movable pulley to the pump, those 4 10mm bolts, I believe. I'm curious, however, why this time, when the bolts were loosened, and I attempted to rotate the pulley from side to side to find the center (as in the diagram I believe Andrzej provided me with a few days ago), that pulley seemed to have a very wide range of motion, about 20-30 degrees, whereas if my memory serves me, last week it was only able to travel a few degrees from side to side, and I'm talking about when it's pegged. That's why I am curious if I even had it pegged to the correct hole in whatever that pulley is bolted to behind it. I've never taken it off. I know the injection pump is behind it, but I don't know how it's attached, nor if something is wrong with mine.

How do I determine, once the rocker cover is off, if I have TDC on #1 cylinder? I haven't read up on replacing tappets. What would I need to do, and how much do those parts cost? I might have to order them from Ford of Germany at an exorbitant fee, but as you say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and I do want this van to be bulletproof reliable. Though I didn't suspect I'd have to spend months and months restoring a van which I need to use right away.

Thank you so kindly for your help, all of you.

[hetman]

The peg hole is just above the starter motor top bolt when new they had a plastic plug in them with a tit on them to grab hold of you say you used a Philips screwdriver that is not big enough you need the proper peg or a drill bit of the correct size can’t remember size but somewhere near 1/2 inch you don’t peg it from the gearbox side/bell housing no where near driveshaft.

I just saw the post with the film linked, and will check it out right away.

OK, good news to know that I have the wrong hole. However, that hole that I used did allow me to lock up the flywheel, but not completely. I mean, I found a hole but there was very slight motion. Anyway, I made sure the crankshaft pulley didn't move from its position. Wouldn't it have moved (visible movement at the front of the engine) if the flywheel moved? Nothing moved there.

I know, it's not near the driveshaft at all. Just a few inches aft of the front of the bell housing.

OK, gonna check out that hole....

[Keef]

Have you read this? viewtopic.php?f=18&t=56801&c=1

[hetman]

The hole is shown at 31 seconds in this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Xe6otUTUQ

Excellent! See, you learn something new every day. OK< that's the hole, from the front side of the flywheel, not the rear side. I don't have to remove the starter, I hope...

[hetman]

Have you read this? viewtopic.php?f=18&t=56801&c=1

No, thanks for the link. I will read it through before I do anything else.

[dumper]

Once you find the correct flywheel hole you should be alright if you get that pegged for tdc on number one both valves will be closed and you should be able to rock them the arms will not be touching the tops of the valves .
As for damage if you have snapped a rocker that will be easy to spot if they look ok and you want to be sure you could remove the complete shaft and pull out the pushrods and check if they are bent if you find any that are bent you can straighten up and reuse but put them back where they came from when a belt snaps on a di even when driving down the road you would be very unlucky to do anymore damage then snapped rocker arm or bent pushrod.
As for pump wheel movement the first time you tried it was maybe sticking on the slots if you had removed it altogether it will only go on one way .

On the video they have removed to many parts must have been doing a few more jobs if you’re tensioner is the same as in the video it’s the best and easiest to use to set the tension.