How urgent is pump learn?

[bluphoto]

Hi there. I plan to fit new Fuel Pressure relief valve and pump metering valve this weekend, and then book the van into ford for a pump learn.
That said, "people" say that if I run the van with new valves then the new valves might go bang without having a pump leanr done.

Is that really true? Can I run it for a few days on new hardware until I get the pump learn done?

Guy

[karl]

true

[bluphoto]

Thanks Karl, so not possible to replace these parts DIY then (however easy they are to replace) before driving the van to ford for a pump learn?
2006 Mk7 transit 2.2 115 TDCi.

I was thinking that it might be possibl to blow the relief valve if I don't replace the metering valve at the same time, but I'm talking about replacing both valves at the same time, then driving before having the pump learn done.

Is it possible for the pump to overpressure the relief valve once it has a new metering valve fitted?

[karl]

Thanks Karl, so not possible to replace these parts DIY then (however easy they are to replace) before driving the van to ford for a pump learn?
2006 Mk7 transit 2.2 115 TDCi.

I was thinking that it might be possibl to blow the relief valve if I don't replace the metering valve at the same time, but I'm talking about replacing both valves at the same time, then driving before having the pump learn done.

Is it possible for the pump to overpressure the relief valve once it has a new metering valve fitted?

were are you ? any where near manchester

[bluphoto]

Inverurie, Aberdeenshire... So errrr. No, not really.

[karl]

Inverurie, Aberdeenshire... So errrr. No, not really.

may be ake can help you

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=10695

[ake]

You could drive it a few miles, but I wouldn't be going to far without doing it, apart from anything else it could pop you new prv

[bluphoto]

Thanks Ake. Can you give me a bit of background there maybe? I'm no expert, but just trying to apply some logic.
im guessing my symptoms are caused by intermittent low fuel pressure. Probably from the metering valve having problems but maybe from a defunct PRV caused by over pressure from the metering valve. I'd think if the regulator valve had blown apart, then my fuel pressure would be constantly low, but the van does drive normally sometimes.
But either way,even if the fuel pressure regulator was blown apart by high pressure as a result of a failed metering valve, then replacing the metering valve would stabilise the pump pressure again.
Right now, the pump learn hasn't been done since new, so the ecu "thinks" that I still have all new components.
Sure, the injectors might have worn a bit, meaning they might flow more freely with a given pressure, but once I change the valves then the pressure will be back as new.

Has ANYONE on here replaced a metering valve without doing a pump learn, and THEN had the PRV blow out as a result?

Obviously a pump learn will be needed to optimise things due to normal wear and tear, but is the difference really enough to blow the PRV?

[v8dave]

im guessing my symptoms are caused by intermittent low fuel pressure.

Sorry if you've given the info in another thread but what are you symptoms
Get the codes read because the pcm should know if the prv has blown and you should have a engine warning light on, and there is a test for a failed prv/scv - get the test done.

But either way,even if the fuel pressure regulator was blown apart by high pressure as a result of a failed metering valve, then replacing the metering valve would stabilise the pump pressure again.

No, because if the prv has collapsed then it is an open hole in the pressure system in parallel with the injectors.

Obviously a pump learn will be needed to optimise things due to normal wear and tear, but is the difference really enough to blow the PRV?

Ford have changed the software in the pcm regularly over the years, the story is that they think the early programming could fail the the prv during normal operation rather than under extreme conditions such as failure of the scv.

[bluphoto]

Absolutely identical symptoms to this guy - so much so, it could have been me writing this!
http://www.northwestbikers.net/index.php?threads/anyone-work-for-ford-transit-mk7-question.18637/page-1

Ended up being the metering valve for him (that's the SCV right?), and I'm pretty sure it is for me too. It makes too much sense not to be.

No light on (which makes me think PRV is probably ok, though not sure if they "wear" so much as just "blow") and the van drives ok some of the time (every journey has the symptoms though at some point) and yesterday I couldn't get above 1500rpm / 15mph for a while.

Van drives okay until I put any serious load on the engine (pulling out of a junction for example, which can make for brown seatcovers if I'm going for a gap in traffic!) Sometimes, it's okay. Most often it drops to the power of an electric wheelbarrow, and stays that way until I take the load off the engine, either by pulling over and idling for a while, or switching off for a moment.

Feels like I'm just "running out of fuel", like there's a blockage or pressure simply drops away for some other reason (metering valve????)

So I was going to change the metering valve first and see how that goes.

Can I take the hose off the PRV and see if it's "passing" diesel?

I'd rather do all I can in my driveway and minimise the cost at Ford or other garage, but I need the van as a daily driver, so would like to do the work myself over a weekend if at all possible, withouth booking in and being off the road for days, or spending £500 to replace a £75 part. (TBH I've not had a quotation yet so it might not cost all that)

I thought about restriction in inlet manifold but it's too inconsistent for that, or EGR related issues (and there WAS an EGR code read a couple of weeks ago though I hear that's not uncommon), but the above link makes me want to spend my money on a metering valve before anything else.

Lots of advisories on my MOT last week, so I'd rather not go spending money unnecessarily on it as I'll probablty only keep it until the spring.

[bluphoto]

Prices from Ford:
PRV = £70.30 +VAT plus another thing needed apparently = £8+VAT
SCV = £114.26+VAT

I'm guessing they'd charge me a couple of hours minimum to do the job, so £140+VAT giving me a total = £400.

I just ordered a new Delphi SCV from Ebayhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-TRANSIT- ... 1403081491for £75 so will put that in and see if it fixes things. From what I see, worst thing that can happen is I blow my old PRV if its not already blown, but if that hasn't happened in 8 years of driving, would a new SCV really create HIGHER than normal fuel pressure to blow the PRV?

Of course if it doesn't fix it, then I'll check the PRV.

[v8dave]

If it is the scv (metering valve) then there is a test in ids (the ford diagnostics system) to verify the fault.

Basically you get the van trundling along in gear and give it full throttle while monitoring the fuel rail pressure. If the pressure jumps up to 1600 bar or more then the scv control has failed which is usually failure of the scv itself and it is never closing. If the pressure never gets to 1300 bar the prv has blown.

Since you don't have a management light on I would do the following.

1) verify that the dash warning lights are functioning. I seen these obscured.
2) get a code read done on ids.
3) check the fuel filter. Is it full of fuel. To be honest you should fit a new one if it is more than six months old.
4) do a leak off test on the injectors.
5) do the prv/scv test
6) do the pump and injector learns

Only if there is proper evident would I start getting the spanners out and changing things. You've ordered the scv, what if it is just a bad earth connection, or a battery failing, or a crank sensor going bad ?

The pump learn and injector learn processes will not complete if the fuel supply is not constant or if the injectors are worn. They will not complete if the prv has been recorded as opening by the pcm.
However, they will compensate for lightly worn injectors or scv.

[bluphoto]

Not the kind of work I can do on the driveway on a Saturday then?
I do understand that is what you would do with access to Ford IDS, but what would you realistically do if cash was tight, you need the van as a daily driver, Ford can't get you in for a week and you had a new SCV in your pocket?

What do I actually have to lose by checking the physical condition of the electrics myself on Saturday, and putting on the SCV if I don't find anything? I guess if the SCV isn't the problem then I've wasted £75 but I guess I'd be in good shape on the SCV front for a while

I'm weighing up how much I've wasted if I just put on the SCV and that's not the problem, against how much I've wasted if I go through those tests first.
If I skip the tests and fit the SCV on Saturday:

If it fixes it... magic. Job done. I then need to find out if a pump learn is needed more now that it would have been if the SCV hadn't failed.

If it doens't fix it, then I may have wasted £75, but I KNOW when I put it into Ford, that it has a new SCV and they can instantly rule out the SCV in any testing they suggest doing before they even do it

If I wait until late next week and put the van into ford for the diagnostic checks?

If the problem is found to be the SCV and I take it away and fit my SCV, then I've wasted the cost of the tests (£70+VAT?)

If the problem is found to be the SCV and I let ford fit a new SCV themselves, then I've wasted the cost of labour and the difference between the Ford bought part and the ebay part (Maybe £100-£120?)

If the problem is found to be something else, then I've wasted the cost of the SCV (£75) but at least that should be reliable

Maybe I'm too logical for my own good!

I do know the dash lights are working, and I'll fit a fuel filter tonight "just in case" and drive it tomorrow to see if it makes a difference (the filter is actually quite old). I have the ability to return the SCV if its not needed, but it sounds like it's quite a common failure so might be worth changing anyway. So that takes care of #1 & #3 on the list.

I guess the heading of this thread was asking about the importance of performing the pump learn after changing the SCV as opposed to the importance of a pump learn if no fault had occurred. Is the same true for Mondeo and other Duratorq cars? Do people routinely bring their cars into ford for a pump learn - just for the sake of having it done?

[v8dave]

Not the kind of work I can do on the driveway on a Saturday then?
I do understand that is what you would do with access to Ford IDS, but what would you realistically do if cash was tight, you need the van as a daily driver, Ford can't get you in for a week and you had a new SCV in your pocket?

My point is that you should do the work to find out if you need the scv or not, then you only pay for the parts you need.

If you take off the fuel filter tomorrow and it's not full to the brim with fuel then very likely the problems not the scv but an air leak. Is there not a mobile mechanic that can come to you with a code reader ( ids is not essential ) and leakoff test kit to rule out those possiblilities ?
Do you get any smoke from the exhaust ?

Not sure if you've done it but I would also clean the air flow an pressure sensors as these can get very dirty.

I've had an scv go bad so I'm not ignorant of the problems and I did it myself but then I do have ids. Have to say mine did not show the sysmptoms you apparently have, I had the fuel consumption drop massively and got lots of knock but it still drive sensibly.

[ake]

The pump learn teaches the van the exact characteristics of the new scv, basically fine tuning.

The point when you have no power and it feels like no fuel is when the prv is open. Like any spring closed valve, they become weaker with use.

You can certainly try doing just the scv, but the chances are that the prv will be weak, if not totally blown

You also have to reset the prv counter using ids