Replace all injectors when the first fails?

[Julez]

Model Ford Transit 330 2.4 tdci MWB
Engine type: 2.4L Duratorq-TDCi (135/140PS)-Puma
Production date: 7/2005
Mileage: 115,000

When an injector fails, and it's the first one to go, should all the injectors be replaced at the same time?

I'm told Ford recommends this, that if the vehicle was being repaired by a Ford dealer they'd just do it, wouldnt give the option of just replacing the one that failed. However, I can't see that advice in writing, online or in print. So is that official advice, or just common sense, or is it just a matter of personal choice/judgement e.g. depends on the mileage etc?

[knobby1]

Often with the Mk6 TDCi's it's the pump which causes a lot of the drama...they break down internally and spread metal flakes all through the system rendering the injectors useless. Pop the fuel filter off and cut it open and check for "sparkly bits".

The "Delphi" systems are known to be rather fragile.

Lord Knobrot

[wojciech]

Model Ford Transit 330 2.4 tdci MWB
Engine type: 2.4L Duratorq-TDCi (135/140PS)-Puma
Production date: 7/2005
Mileage: 115,000

When an injector fails, and it's the first one to go, should all the injectors be replaced at the same time?

I'm told Ford recommends this, that if the vehicle was being repaired by a Ford dealer they'd just do it, wouldnt give the option of just replacing the one that failed. However, I can't see that advice in writing, online or in print. So is that official advice, or just common sense, or is it just a matter of personal choice/judgement e.g. depends on the mileage etc?

If there are no filings in the fuel filter, do the injector overflow test. This is a cheap, simple and quick test to determine the condition of the injectors. Replace or regenerate only those exceeding the fuel return rate (due to costs). If there are filings in the fuel, the repair will be very expensive. You then have to replace the pump and all injectors and flush the entire fuel system. Costs may exceed the value of the car. A similar situation can occur even without fuel filings, if the system goes into limp mode and errors P0251 and / or P1211 arise.

[Julez]

Thanks both, that's really helpful.

If there are no filings in the fuel filter, do the injector overflow test. This is a cheap, simple and quick test to determine the condition of the injectors.

OK, if that's the same as a leak off test, then that's done, only one injector failed.

Replace or regenerate only those exceeding the fuel return rate (due to costs). If there are filings in the fuel, the repair will be very expensive. You then have to replace the pump and all injectors and flush the entire fuel system.

So if I understand correctly:
Replace any injectors that fail the overflow test
If there are no filings in the fuel filter, and the other injectors pass the overflow test, then there's no need to replace them.
If there are sparkly bits in the fuel filter, then replace the fuel pump and all the injectors, because they are probably damaged by the fuel pump filings.

Unfortunately, the first thing the mechanic did was replace the fuel filter and chuck the old one away without cutting it open and checking for filings.
The engine hasn't run since the new filter was fitted, and I guess it would take a while for filings to appear there.
Is there another way to test the fuel pump? Where else would the fuel pump filings show up?

Costs may exceed the value of the car. A similar situation can occur even without fuel filings, if the system goes into limp mode and errors P0251 and / or P1211 arise.

It's a 2006 camper van, so in good condition valued over £20k. I'd just bought it, so the dealer is doing the repair. Reason for asking the question is to check they're repairing it right.

[Julez]

Often with the Mk6 TDCi's it's the pump which causes a lot of the drama...they break down internally and spread metal flakes all through the system rendering the injectors useless. Pop the fuel filter off and cut it open and check for "sparkly bits".

The "Delphi" systems are known to be rather fragile.

Lord Knobrot

Apparently the whole fuel system is full of metal flakes and it all needs replacing including pump, all injectors, fuel filter, pipes, and the tank flushing at a cost of just over £6k.

Now I'm trying to get a full refund from the dealer that sold it to me, as the vehicle failed less than 3 months after buying it.

[wojciech]

Apparently the whole fuel system is full of metal flakes and it all needs replacing including pump, all injectors, fuel filter, pipes, and the tank flushing at a cost of just over £6k.

Now I'm trying to get a full refund from the dealer that sold it to me, as the vehicle failed less than 3 months after buying it.

The engine goes into limp mode and the occurrence of errors P0251 and p1211 is not always associated with the occurrence of filings. This was most often the case until 2003, then Delphi improved the pumps and, in principle, no filings appeared.
Nevertheless, the Delphi CR fuel system has a failure-free mileage of up to 125,000 miles on average and then the pump and injectors need to be regenerated - the engine increasingly goes into limp mode at higher loads. But there are sometimes big differences in trouble-free mileage.
Services dealing with the repair of fuel fittings always dictate high prices, despite the fact that often the repair of the pump comes down to intervention in the low pressure section. Also, the regeneration of the injectors is not cosmically complicated - but the prices of the service are cosmic.
Although, on the one hand, diesel fittings are the highest technical precision and its servicing requires knowledge and expensive equipment, on the other hand, making a shrine out of it is an exaggeration. Well - it's always been like this ...

[metalworker0]

stupid question ..but what use is a fuel filter that does not catch theses flakes, and lets them through it?

[Altransit]

stupid question ..but what use is a fuel filter that does not catch theses flakes, and lets them through it?

The filter cleans the fuel from the tank, and sends it to the pump. If the pump breaks up, the 'particles' don't travel through the filter, but go straight to the injectors.

[metalworker0]

So they must get into the filter via the return system then ..recirculating them .

Think there should be some sort of a simple trap between the pump and the injectors to trap them,. sink them out of the diesel like gold particles.
How many miles are we talking before this happens?

ford seam to be putting in place lots of things to end a vehicles life before its time is really up ..wetbelt, this, rust and other things - planned obsolescence - at a time when they tell us to worry about the environment and recycle!
if you ask me it's all bunkum ..the next generation of electric vehicles will have a lifespan of less than 6-7 years - when people realise that a car , van etc is doomed in such a way ..it will be a luxury few people can afford.

Think we should all start searching for a stash of back up spares bought cheaply when available at the right price to prevent a £6000 nightmare.

all the best..mark

[knobby1]

stupid question ..but what use is a fuel filter that does not catch theses flakes, and lets them through it?

The filter cleans the fuel from the tank, and sends it to the pump. If the pump breaks up, the 'particles' don't travel through the filter, but go straight to the injectors.

Just to add to this....the leakback lines from the injectors don't go through the filter either, they just dump back to tank....so your tank gets full of metal filings too....only then do they get sucked back up into the filter prior to going to the pump. This is why we ask people to cut their filter open and check for filings/metal flakes.

Lord Knobrot

[wojciech]

stupid question ..but what use is a fuel filter that does not catch theses flakes, and lets them through it?

The filter cleans the fuel from the tank, and sends it to the pump. If the pump breaks up, the 'particles' don't travel through the filter, but go straight to the injectors.

Just to add to this....the leakback lines from the injectors don't go through the filter either, they just dump back to tank....so your tank gets full of metal filings too....only then do they get sucked back up into the filter prior to going to the pump. This is why we ask people to cut their filter open and check for filings/metal flakes.

Lord Knobrot

In fact, the fuel from the injectors does not return directly to the tank, but goes to the pump. There it mixes in the low pressure section with clean fuel from the filter and only then its excess flows into the tank. This additionally increases and accelerates the damage in the pump. Anyway - the filings, if there are any, circulate through the most important, most delicate elements of the system - high disinfection pump and injectors.

A Injection line
B High pressure hose
C Return fuel from pump to tank
D Fuel supply
E Overflow line
F Fuel drain into tank
1 Injector
2 Common rail
3 High pressure pump
4 Fuel filter
5 Fuel tank
6/7 IDM and PCM - In later systems, together in one
driver

[metalworker0]

Yes, diagram explains how everything gets contaminated ...self priming and fuel return makes sure of that.

would you say super market diesel wares the pump out quicker ..and the saving is not balanced by the cost of replacement parts or a written off van in the future.


all the best.mark

[ned]

New pump is about £450 new injectors are about £150 each, pf Jones do reman pumps and injectors, plus a new filter at £28 so parts alone are about £1k, £5k for cleaning the system sounds like a “go away” price to me.

[knobby1]

In fact, the fuel from the injectors does not return directly to the tank, but goes to the pump. There it mixes in the low pressure section with clean fuel from the filter and only then its excess flows into the tank. This additionally increases and accelerates the damage in the pump. Anyway - the filings, if there are any, circulate through the most important, most delicate elements of the system - high disinfection pump and injectors.

A Injection line
B High pressure hose
C Return fuel from pump to tank
D Fuel supply
E Overflow line
F Fuel drain into tank
1 Injector
2 Common rail
3 High pressure pump
4 Fuel filter
5 Fuel tank
6/7 IDM and PCM - In later systems, together in one
driver

Thanks Wojciech...that's the picture I was looking for...you're correct of course as usual, the leak-back fuel from the injectors goes directly back to the pump low pressure side.....then the pump excess fuel returns to tank.

Lord Knobrot.

[wojciech]

Yes, diagram explains how everything gets contaminated ...self priming and fuel return makes sure of that.

would you say super market diesel wares the pump out quicker ..and the saving is not balanced by the cost of replacement parts or a written off van in the future.


all the best.mark

The heating oil is factory-colored and has almost the same properties as diesel fuel. The amateurs of easy money decolourised it with sulfuric acid and sold it to fuel stations as full-fledged diesel fuel. It was a tragedy to refuel with something like that. No injection system could withstand this.
Currently, this practice is heavily contaminated.