05 Transit - Very odd shut-down problem (P1211, P0251)

[thrillrider]

Hey Guys,

I picked up a 05 Ford Transit 12 Seat Bus from an auction about a month ago. It has 277,000 kms on the clock.

Since I've picked it up, the bus has spent more days with a mechanic than with me.

Here are the bus details: 2005 Ford Transit VJ Bus Mid Roor 12st 2dr Man 6sp 2.4DT (assembled in germany)

Symptoms:
As I drive it on the highway, the glow-plug light starts to flash and the engine looses power (starts to run rough). Sometimes, the engine dies completely, other times I can drive it for a number of KM's before I have to pull aside. After I pull over to the curb and shut the engine off, I can start it right away and the problem is gone only to return a few minutes later. This usually happens when I drive the van in 6th gear, (although it has happened in 4th, 5th and 6th) and mostly when I drive it above 100km/hr (although it has happened at 60km/hr uphill, 80km/hr highways, and anywhere in between 60 and 100km/hr on the highways).

A few weeks ago the van died about 4 times before dying for good. I had to tow it to the mechanic who in turn replaced the fuel pump (refurbished). In the process, my starter motor died. When the van died this time there was diesel fuel leaking from the bottom of the engine (Couldnt see from where). And it wouldn't start.

Even after they refurbished the pump, replaced some hoses and replaced the starter (which I believe the mechanic killed while trying to start the van), I still have the exact same problem.

Here are the codes that it spits out this time:
P1211 IPC Pressyre above/below desired (another computer: Engine shut-down due to rail pressure control)
P0251 INJ PUMP "A" rotor/cam problem (another computer: Fuel Pressure control Circuit)

A few questions if you can help:
Would these codes prompt an inexperienced mechanic to pull the fuel pump out?
What is actually wrong with it?
How do I fix it?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Nick

[Steve B]

sounds like it is drawing in air into the fuel line, crack off an injector and see if any air bubbles come out, if so check the seal on the fuel housing first, it must be coming from somewhere so if its not that check all the fuel connections

[Nighthawk]

DON'T be tempted to crack off an injector pipe on a TDCi engine, there are extreme pressures present!

0251 and 0211 are just about the most common codes encountered on the delphi TDCi system fitted to that type of transit.

They both relate to fuel pressure control and fuel pressure performance......not sure where the description for rotor A came from as i've not seen that since the days of Lucas Epic system. The Ford description of the fault certainly doesn't mention the pump rotor.

The fault is triggered by a deviation in fuel pressure +/- 60 bar from the demanded value for a period of 2 seconds.

in simple terms, if the system determines it needs 1200 bar at the fuel rail, the rail pressure sensor should report back that it has that pressure +/- 60bar. If it hasn't managed to see the correct pressure for 2 seconds the system will close down the system and flash the mil.

causes vary from air ingress between the filter and the pump, blocked fuel filter, worn injectors, sticking inlet metering valve on the pump, leaking high pressure pipes, or a worn pump.

And yes, the starter was probably killed by excessive cranking of the engine trying to start it.

TDCi injector failures are more common than the pump failure.

hope that helps

[thrillrider]

Thanks for that Nighthawk,

How do I go to best pinpoint the problem. You've listed a number of things here. The fuel pump was just refurbished. So they had the whole thing apart. The refurbishment was done by a diesel specialist. How do I check the other things without spending $10k?

Cheers,
Nick

[Nighthawk]

is he fuel filter ok?

the testing of the injector return flow requires specialist equipment, so i'd advise that is done by someone who knows what they are doing.

[calnetaxis]

Very strange coincidence - i hav e just bought an 05 Transit minibus with exactly the same symptons as you have/are encountering - have you found a solution to the problem ? and how did u overcome the problems if you have ?

[thrillrider]

Hey guys,

well, we've tested just about everything we could. We plugged the computer in and tried driving the vehicle to see what the engine is doing when it stalls, and the engine would stall from the getgo and computer would not connect to the data while driving it. So we tried another method. We plugged the chip to record the data, but the data we wanted was not recorded.

We we went to square one and started testing everything. It looks like it is the injector problem. I am still to take the van in and get the injectors rebuilt. We will see if that makes a difference.

Price so far - $2000... Injectors to cost about that too.

Let me know how you go with yours. I will let you know within a week how I go with this one.

The funny thing is, if you drive it without accelerating too much in 5th and 6th gear, the van does not die. It only happens on acceleration or quick acceleration.

Regards,
Nick

[winterheating]

do yourself a favour and buy a new ''SET'' of injectors from ford or delphi, cos if injectors are not calibtrated and given a new correction factor code when refurbished they will fail very premuretuly.

as nighthawk says the injectors are the most common fault.

when under hard acceleration fuel injector is put under most stress so thats when its showing up.

[calnetaxis]

I have been to two different mechanics and they have both come up with the following solution

The problem is with the injection pump.. I have seen this many times - and your symptoms fit - and added to that , the death knell is the P0251... indicating internal pump failure ( or at this point - trouble )

Your best bet is to have this looked at further by a Diesel Specialist wherever you live, if you havn't done so already - but the pump needs to come off and either be replaced - or, I would suggest, if you can do without the van for a while, its cheaper to send it off for repair..


HAVE YOU TRIED CHANGING THE INJECTION PUMP ON YOUR TRANSIT AND IF SO WHAT WAS THE OUTCOME ?

[winterheating]

I have been to two different mechanics and they have both come up with the following solution

The problem is with the injection pump.. I have seen this many times - and your symptoms fit - and added to that , the death knell is the P0251... indicating internal pump failure ( or at this point - trouble )

Your best bet is to have this looked at further by a Diesel Specialist wherever you live, if you havn't done so already - but the pump needs to come off and either be replaced - or, I would suggest, if you can do without the van for a while, its cheaper to send it off for repair..


HAVE YOU TRIED CHANGING THE INJECTION PUMP ON YOUR TRANSIT AND IF SO WHAT WAS THE OUTCOME ?

the fact is most garages wont know about the rare tdci mk6 transit, which has a totally different fuel system to the tddi transits.

its simple and effective tests like INJECTOR LEAK BACK READINGS that pin point problems like this, instead of reading fault codes then just making assumptions. or changing parts to try and rectify.

also the fuel pump has metered fuel via a solonoid valve, which is very cheap to buy.
and the tdci pumps that broke down where only around 2000-2001 mondeo models.

[calnetaxis]

Well weve got ours sorted - we took it to a Ford Dealer and they did an injector test - found two injectors were leaking - replaced two injectors then did the test again only to find that a third injector was leaking. Replaced the third injector and everything running ok - job done !!!

[winterheating]

Well weve got ours sorted - we took it to a Ford Dealer and they did an injector test - found two injectors were leaking - replaced two injectors then did the test again only to find that a third injector was leaking. Replaced the third injector and everything running ok - job done !!!

id get the 4th one done then as it wont last long.

[spanner-86]

hi people i know iv been away a while is it fair to say that the majority of fuel concerns is due to poor fuel quality and/or poor servicing

[madmark_50484]

hi people i know iv been away a while is it fair to say that the majority of fuel concerns is due to poor fuel quality and/or poor servicing

Would say Injectors failing although poor servicing will mean your engine wont last as long on a modern engine "so called progress"

[martynx]

hi people i know iv been away a while is it fair to say that the majority of fuel concerns is due to poor fuel quality and/or poor servicing?

No, on regular british fuel mk5 DI's will happily do half a million miles without new injectors & mk6 tddi's a good few hundred thou. Its the delphi system & injectors , used on tdci mk6's that often dont last half as long , & need far more specialist diagnosis when they do go faulty , thats all.