Starter issue

[Aardvark]

As I have been posting in the other thread "What did you do to your mk 3/4/5 today" I have been having starter problems recently. It was nice and sunny today so I spent a happy hour outside changing the starter for a new one I had in the shed. After I fitted the new one I tried to start the engine and click (!) then tried again and it started. About 15 minutes later the exact same thing happened. I am confident the battery is sound and fully charged. All the connections have been on and off so many times there can't be any corrosion left anywhere. Then while sticking the old starter in the box the new one came out of, I spotted a piece of paper which reads........
Important Fitting Note
These vehicles are fitted with a starter relay, which is located behind and below the driver's side headlight.
This relay and the terminals connected to it are prone to suffer from corrosion the effect of which is to make the starter inoperative, just click or give an intermittent non-start fault.
The relay and its connections must be checked, cleaned/replaced after fitting this starter.

What is this all about? I certainly can't find any relay in the area described. Has anyone heard of this?
1999 2.5di 76PS

[Altransit]

Isn't it under a black cover, just underneath the drivers side battery tray

[Aardvark]

There's nothing under the tray but a rusty wheelbox. On the side of the tray nearest the engine there is only a large round multiconnector. On the side nearest the wing there is a long covered box with two square fuses in it. One is 60a the other is 80a. There are four more fuse positions in the box but they are empty.

[Frag]

The relay they refer to is mk3/4...
'Possibly' the very earliest of mk5's (can't quite remember).

Where fitted,it's on the osf inner wheel arch.

[Aardvark]

That's maybe why I can't find it. Mine's a '99. Ford probably made the change to save money.
I still don't understand why I still get a single click and no engagement until I back off the key and try again.

[Altransit]

That's maybe why I can't find it. Mine's a '99. Ford probably made the change to save money.
I still don't understand why I still get a single click and no engagement until I back off the key and try again.

You shouldn't really need a relay, when there's a solenoid on top of the starter which switches the high current
I thought that my '97 had one, but I no longer have it to check


Is it possible that you have a dodgy ignition switch

[ceurieusneus]

To my knowledge, Ford used 5 different starter motors on the 2.5 DI... maybe more?
The biggest starter motor (to my knowledge is the Bosch 2.7KW).
The bigger the force of the starter motor the bigger the electro magnetic contact (solenoid) to power it.
The bigger the solenoid, the more amps (amperes) to get it working.
To much amperes over the ignition switch will wear out the contacts!
For this reason there is a relay, close by the starter motor.
I do not know if all Transits have them, but certainly mine has.
Bad contacts here or a bad relais could give you a problem
There could be a possibility, the relay has to match the solenoid off the starter motor.

[Altransit]

So it could be that the starting problems, caused by a slow cranking, suffered by many later Mk5's, mine included, could have been caused by the omission of a relay to power the solenoid

[ceurieusneus]

So it could be that the starting problems, caused by a slow cranking, suffered by many later Mk5's, mine included, could have been caused by the omission of a relay to power the solenoid

I never worked in a Ford garage! I only try to find logic solutions, most based on have been in the past, for 25 years a ships engineer.
The only Transit I worked on is mine a '89 MK3
Under the same conditions... good battery no corrosion propper relay...The more powerful the starter motor the faster the cranking!
My transit has the (second) relay that powers the solenoid and the starter motor is the 2.7KW Bosch.
My 27 years old transit starts extremely good!

Of coarse a starter motor with only half the power will be slower on cranking the engine.

Again, to my knowledge...
If you upgrade your starter motor to a more powerful one, you should consider to upgrade the battery cables to, and to consider placing a suitably (extra)relay.
If the current (amperes) to that solenoid or motor is not sufficient, the starter motor will not engage...

[Altransit]

That all sounds very logical, if I still had the van, I would be tempted to upgrade the wiring to include a relay, just to see if it cured the poor starting

[gotgcoalman]

That all sounds very logical, if I still had the van, I would be tempted to upgrade the wiring to include a relay, just to see if it cured the poor starting

or,,,,,,,,

second battery to double the CCA

[ned]

are we all assuming the "new starter from the shed" is in perfect working order it could have got some moisture in it and be sticking/not engaging correctly, or have a bad connection on the actual starter. just thinking out loud new parts can fail. N

[Aardvark]

Yes I am assuming the new starter is OK. But I did look carefully at the business end and found no signs of corrosion, etc. I also fed it some 12v from a bench battery and it connected and spun up quickly, but so did the old one I took off the van.

[ceurieusneus]

That all sounds very logical, if I still had the van, I would be tempted to upgrade the wiring to include a relay, just to see if it cured the poor starting

or,,,,,,,,

second battery to double the CCA

I have the (extra) relay, the powerful 2.7KW Bosch starter motor and a good 12 Volt 74 AH 680A (EN) battery...
Every time I am surprised how good this engine starts!

Again to my knowlidge
There is absolute no need for a second battery if the first one is OK.
You have zero on the double (ca. 1300cca) cranking power of two battery's if the starter motor needs less than 680!
What you do NOT (NOT) need is losing to much tension (VOLTAGE) in the leads and connections to the starter motor and solenoid.
The higher the current, the lower the tension on the end of the cable! (Basic school electricity)
The higher the resistance in the lead (smaller diameter) or the connections, the bigger the loss and the lower the tension, on the end of the cable ( again basic school electricity)
I hope i have all the words right..., obvious I could explain better in my native language.
Never forget to (in)calculate the losses in the negative - (earth) cable, I try to keep them the same size as the positive + for good results.

[Keef]

I've just had a battle with mine to get it to spin over quickly in the morning, it turned out to be the bendix in the starter motor.
I replaced the bendix for about £20 and it spins over like a lunatic now

I've just repaired another two slow starters I thought were dead and were chucked in the back of the shed, happy days.