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Engine Rebuild Mk 4

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Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:28 pm

I have just got home from the garage with my 2.5tdi Transit Ambulance after an expensive rebuild before installing, which took me weeks to complete. It has had new pistons, six new valves, a liner, crank ground (and new bearings) and turbocharger rebuild. The head has also been surface ground. I have also of course fitted new belts, filters, radiator, alternator and injectors.

The engine doesn't have the power I would expect from 100hp, the one it replaced was a 2.5di of only 70hp, and there is quite a lot of smoke coming out of the exhaust going up hill. I was wondering if the injector pump needs adjusting and if anyone could tell me how to do it. The pump fitted is a Bosch.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby gotgcoalman » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:33 pm

Turn up the fueling and advance the pump timing

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:22 pm

gotgcoalman wrote:Turn up the fueling and advance the pump timing

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I don't understand what 'turn up the fueling' means.

To advance the pump timing which way do I turn the pump looking at the front of the engine please?

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby gotgcoalman » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:40 pm

Turn the pump timing clockwise and the fueling can be increased by turning the adjustment under the cover on the top of the pump

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Chug » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:54 am

For mid range and max fuel adjustments..........viewtopic.php?f=2&t=185357&start=60#p1596278
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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:08 am

Thank you very much, I have been building engines since the early 70's but I have never got into tuning them and fuel systems. When they leave the workshop it has been someone else's concern :D

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:33 pm

I have the front off my engine and cannot turn the pump clockwise, it seems hard up against the end of the slots, but it will turn a little anti-clockwise standing looking at the engine from the front. What do I do now please?

I had to remove the pulley to slacken the front bolts on the pump but marked it all with correction fluid. I can borrow the timing kit again from the workshop tomorrow.

It is very hard to start in the morning but will start with not problem during the day. It has less power than the engine it replaced, a 2.5di @70hp and that smoked a lot. The smoke from this 2.5td engine (100hp) is not that great, there is virtually none once it has started and is ticking over, but I will look at it again once the power problem is solved. It is like a 60's petrol car with the distributor 10 degrees out.

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:12 pm

I have just found another post about Bosch pump timing and it mentions DTI setting, but more importantly it says the timing pin is removed (with the flywheel/crank and cam pins left in place) and the pump timing is altered by turning the centre big nut, not the pump body like with a Lucus CAV pump. Am I daft or have I misread something.

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:36 pm

Still not sorted my camper. I advanced the pump as far as it would go this morning, then the heavens opened.

I have a noise coming from the injector pump that I can hear distinctly in the cab. It sounds like a hammer stricking an anvil. Can anyone shed some light on this please. It is definately coming from the pump, I have had an engine stethoscope on it and the noise seems to come from the middle of the pump. I have tried running the engine at high revs and turn off the key to see if the noise carries on after the fuel is shut off and it doesn't. Am I getting the pump rebuilt next?

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Chug » Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:24 pm

The pump is not on elongated slots like the lucas so you cannot adjust it by turning the pump body, you can change the timing by moving it in the pulley slots, turning the centre big nut moves the pump in the pulley slots. Any further adjustments will require the drive pulley being turned on the pump drive shaft. But DO NOT loosen the centre big nut on the pump drive shaft ever without locking the drive shaft of the pump first with the 10mm bolt on the side, the drive pulley is not fitted with a keyway like most pumps but is just tightened on a tapered shaft, loosening the centre bolt allows the pulley to turn on the shaft.

You can see the locking screw (10mm bolt) number 393..... but first the plate 394 has to be removed to allow the bolt to screw in to lock the pump.
http://dieselcatalog.online/en/bosch/04 ... 14119.html

The bosch ve pumps are noisy compared to the lucas but shouldn't sound like a hammer on anvil.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:10 am

Thank you for the warning but I had no intention of stripping the pump. To advance the pump timing I just loosened the four 13mm headed bolts and turned the pump centre shaft clockwise with a 22mm spanner until it hit the end of the slot. Tomorrow I will try altering the fueling if there is less rain than today.

There is an injector pump specialist here in Liverpool and he has quoted me £120 to look at it. Cheaper than replacing it if I b*gger it up by stripping it, and in any case I don't know what I am looking at anyway.

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:16 pm

Just been out to do some adjustments as per your instructions. Firstly the engine was difficult to start from cold, it starts very easily when warm.

I turned the top adjuster clockwise until I got smoke and then backed it off a little. The rear adjuster I turn clockwise as I look at it from the front of the engine, a half turn and a road test. There was more power and some smoke going up the first hill but no smoke going up the second one. Should I try adjusting again? The noise is still there.

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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby cherniy_chack » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:27 pm

Hay,Wotisname .
The fact that after the repair your engine makes a lot of noise and smoke suggests that the turbocharger after the repair does not develop the intended boost pressure.
Without load, the boost pressure can be about 0.2 ... 0.3 atmospheres, moving in fifth gear on a flat road at a speed of about 100 km / h-0.4 ... 0.5 atmospheres, when driving uphill and abruptly acceleration cannot be less than 0.6 ... 0.7 atmosphere.
In 2015, I installed a turbocharger on my engine and connected a pressure gauge to measure the boost pressure.
The most common cause of low boost pressure after a turbocharger repair is incorrect adjustment of the length of the drive rod from the pneumatic drive to the gate.
Or air leakage due to a leak in the boost duct.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby Wotisname » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:23 am

cherniy_chack wrote:Hay,Wotisname .
The fact that after the repair your engine makes a lot of noise and smoke suggests that the turbocharger after the repair does not develop the intended boost pressure.
Without load, the boost pressure can be about 0.2 ... 0.3 atmospheres, moving in fifth gear on a flat road at a speed of about 100 km / h-0.4 ... 0.5 atmospheres, when driving uphill and abruptly acceleration cannot be less than 0.6 ... 0.7 atmosphere.
In 2015, I installed a turbocharger on my engine and connected a pressure gauge to measure the boost pressure.
The most common cause of low boost pressure after a turbocharger repair is incorrect adjustment of the length of the drive rod from the pneumatic drive to the gate.
Or air leakage due to a leak in the boost duct.


Interesting you should meantion this at this time as I was discussing this yesterday at my local garage. But firstly I must correct your first sentence. My engine hums like a Swiss watch and is totally smokeless. The only unexpected noise is the hammer/anvil noise from the injection pump. The amount of power that I am getting is less than I got with the old 2.5di engine ie. down to third gear and 25 mph to get up the hill in the old Mersey Tunnel. Before yesterday's adjustments I'd have been in second gear and 20 mph. The old engine would have been in 4th and on the speed limit of 30 mph, incidently the rebuilt engine is much quieter. So clearly there is more to do before I adjust the waste-gate of the turbo but I have ordered a boost gauge as a next step. I have already blanked off the EGR and blanked off the small vacumm pipes as I don't have any of the electronics to run it.

Having been inside both engines I can report there is not much difference between a non-turbo and a turbo engine. The swish bowel in the piston top is slightly larger in the turbo engine and there is a recess machined in the head between the exhaust and inlet valves about 4mm deep and about the size of the inlet valve head. This is because the turbo engine has a little less compression. These differences are so small that I believe a turbo could probably be bolted onto a 2.5di engine without any other changes except the injection pump. The head on my turbo engine started life as a non-turbo 2.5di and I machined the recesses, and fitted turbo pistons and turbo injectors. There is no difference between a 2.5di and a 2.5tdi block. All the drillings are there for the oil feed to the turbocharger. The sump in the non-turbo needs a drain pipe fitting. Incidently 4 heads were rejected for the rebuilt engine before I found one without cracks between the exhaust and inlet seats of no4 cylinder.

The local injection pump expert claims the advance and retard on Bosch pumps often stick, can this be checked without removing the pump. It is not that I don't want to spend the £120 to have it checked just I don't have any other wheels at this time.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Mk 4

Postby cherniy_chack » Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:10 pm

Wotisname I have repaired Transit 2.5 d and 2.5 td engines more than once and I know that the difference between them is minimal.
Maybe I made the wrong conclusion and the strong noise and smoke of the restored engine - I use the services of a Google translator.
But I can't imagine the high pressure fuel pump making a hammer-like noise.
Such sounds can be emitted by the engine if the timing is incorrect - it is during early fuel injection.
In addition to the initial or static injection timing when installing the flywheel, camshaft pulley and injection pump pulley on the rods, there is also a dynamic one, which depends on the speed of rotation of the pump shaft and the adjustment of the pressure regulator valve inside the high-pressure fuel pump housing and the health of the actuator turning the ring with rollers on which the wave washer runs.
I regulated and controlled the pressure in the pump casing with a pressure gauge, it should be from 4 atmospheres when the motor was running at 1000 rpm to 9.5 atmospheres at 4000 rpm.
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