Bosch Pumps. What's Different?

[ColinJack]

I am in the process of converting a late 2.5 TDi to manual pump and was interested in what the differences are between the various model numbers.

The general opinion seems to be that 0 460 414 145 and 0 460 414 146 are the best pumps for the conversion, but surely most Transit pumps will be very similar?
I have a 0 460 414 108 R567 which it seems was fitted on N/A engines up until 8/1997 ...

I wondered if anybody can explain where the main differences are? I have read some of the posts discussing some of pretty heavy pump modification (dieselhead123 seems to be one of the main butchers ), but nobody explains what the differences are and why the 145/146 pumps are preferred.

[AndyG]

Firstly, the pumps and injectors for pre Aug '97 built MK5 Transits work on a lower pressure than the ones made after Aug '97
Working on a higher pressure than before, means that the diesel can be more finely sprayed into the combustion chamber
This leads to a more complete burn of the diesel and a cleaner exhaust

And "maps" are not just for ECUs
Mechanical pumps also have a "map", albeit a manual "map" in the shape of possibly a "needle" as in an SU Carburetor


ANY Transit Bosch pump will work, but the question is; how well

[AndyG]

(dieselhead123 seems to be one of the main butchers )

If you want quality cut meat, you need to go to no other than a quality butcher dieselhead123

[ColinJack]

(dieselhead123 seems to be one of the main butchers )

If you want quality cut meat, you need to go to no other than a quality butcher dieselhead123

He sold me the 108 pump!!

[AndyG]

(dieselhead123 seems to be one of the main butchers )

If you want quality cut meat, you need to go to no other than a quality butcher dieselhead123

He sold me the 108 pump!!

But he may have already mapped it into a 145/6 Did you ask him

[ColinJack]

Firstly, the pumps and injectors for pre Aug '97 built MK5 Transits work on a lower pressure than the ones made after Aug '97
Working on a higher pressure than before, means that the diesel can be more finely sprayed into the combustion chamber
This leads to a more complete burn of the diesel and a cleaner exhaust

And "maps" are not just for ECUs
Mechanical pumps also have a "map", albeit a manual "map" in the shape of possibly a "needle" as in an SU Carburetor


ANY Transit Bosch pump will work, but the question is; how well

Great, thanks Andy, that makes a lot of sense. I'm sticking with the orange spot injectors (85PS) so hope the pump will be up to it. I'm not intending to tune it to the limit, but have 'prepared' the pump for tweaking (cap off top and max fuel screw anti-tamper removed). You mention the needle - I could just do what dieselhead123 has done and remove it totally

We will see what happens.

[AndyG]

Sounds like you know what you're doing

[ColinJack]

He sold me the 108 pump!!

But he may have already mapped it into a 145/6 Did you ask him

No - I watched him nick it off some old tat he had in the back of his shed.

Man's a diamond though - he even lent me his DTI gauge to set the advance. I'm sure he will help if I get stuck.
I was just interested in the main differences - if there were going to be any major issues, I'm sure Tim would have said.

[ColinJack]

Sounds like you know what you're doing

We will see when I get in in the van!

[andypdq]

The main difference will be the profile of the cam plate in the pump. This is the map.

See http://www.starsdiesel.com/product.asp?id=3330

[ColinJack]

The main difference will be the profile of the cam plate in the pump. This is the map.

See http://www.starsdiesel.com/product.asp?id=3330

Okay - that makes a lot of sense. Presumably I could change this quite easily if need be later?

[dieselhead123]

As far as I have checked with ESI, the transit can plates are all the same, with the exception of the 154 pump, (rare turbo Bosch unit, only used outside EU), this pump uses the same cam plate as the 200tdi Landrover one, 2 466 110 125.
The mechanical advance unit on the 154 is also different, altered to suit turbo applications, changing this or the cam plate requires a pump strip, but the advance unit used in earlier pumps is 'closer' to the 154.
Pump operating pressures can be altered without pump removal but with the guide pin removed, this is less of an issue.

A lot of it will be 'suck it and see', I doubt even a genuine 'un-molested' 154 pump would be perfect with 'larger' injectors, but would be a good starting point.

TIM

[ColinJack]

As far as I have checked with ESI, the transit can plates are all the same, with the exception of the 154 pump, (rare turbo Bosch unit, only used outside EU), this pump uses the same cam plate as the 200tdi Landrover one, 2 466 110 125.
The mechanical advance unit on the 154 is also different, altered to suit turbo applications, changing this or the cam plate requires a pump strip, but the advance unit used in earlier pumps is 'closer' to the 154.
Pump operating pressures can be altered without pump removal but with the guide pin removed, this is less of an issue.

A lot of it will be 'suck it and see', I doubt even a genuine 'un-molested' 154 pump would be perfect with 'larger' injectors, but would be a good starting point.

TIM

You really do know your Bosch pumps don't you?

I will get it up and running and then may ask you for a little advice on final tweaking.

[andypdq]

Hi Tim,

Any info on what the internal pump pressures actually should be for different rpms? Iv'e searched all over the internet and can't find anything. I've seen a test rig video where they show you the pressure gauge at 0.5 MPa (75 PSI) with the pump running pretty fast. Varying internal pressure and changing advance piston springs should let you vary rates of advance to suit your needs, so actual pump pressure settings would be invaluable. Any info would be most gratefully received.

Thanks and regards.

Andy.

[ColinJack]

As far as I have checked with ESI, the transit can plates are all the same, with the exception of the 154 pump, (rare turbo Bosch unit, only used outside EU), this pump uses the same cam plate as the 200tdi Landrover one, 2 466 110 125.
The mechanical advance unit on the 154 is also different, altered to suit turbo applications, changing this or the cam plate requires a pump strip, but the advance unit used in earlier pumps is 'closer' to the 154.
Pump operating pressures can be altered without pump removal but with the guide pin removed, this is less of an issue.

A lot of it will be 'suck it and see', I doubt even a genuine 'un-molested' 154 pump would be perfect with 'larger' injectors, but would be a good starting point.

TIM

Here's an interesting thing. A few sites on tinternet list the 154 as a replacement part for the 108! This supports what Tim said (above)

e.g. http://www.autopartoo.com/oem/bosch/0460414108kpt.html

Starting to get excited now!