Performace mechanichal pump for turbo 2.5 Di.

[Rickbu]

Lol give up Andy you don't know the full situation of my setup, I was just keeping it simple for you it's actually more like the viscosity of my home made biodiesel varying due to ambient temperature, but didn't really want to get into that. Good luck with your build anyway and if you end up having to take it off again to drill the hole I'm gonna laugh at you.

[andypdq]

Oh, apart from the two spring timing piston with relief spool, which adds further refinement to pressure control for timing, not as standard on the Di, because it's a Ford but we are considering adding it to our pump, for more stable advance control.

[Rickbu]

Still think you should drill the hole

[Rickbu]

Just another observation I've been making in the time I've been running this setup every day. I do believe it would benifit from more rpm based timing advance as although I am running a fair bit of static advance it does seem to go a little soft at the top.. So I'm still sticking by what I'm saying about the hole. You may find different results that's for sure these pumps are so configurable it's hard to compare any two setups, I was simply saying once the holes done it's there to use if yous decided and doesn't make any difference if you don't

[andypdq]

Yes we thought of that, we have a gadget which bolts on the side of the timing piston housing when I test the pumps on my home made test bench. It measures the displacement of the timing piston at different pump speeds, by adjusting spring loading or pump pressure, you can alter the rate of advance, if you want more range, which your suggestion won't give you, then fit a shorter timing piston or machine some off the original.

[Rickbu]

Now your getting me interested Andy!! . please tell me more about machining the piston to give more advance. I assume you mean purely shortening it from the front side so it travels further before bottoming out,that what your saying makes perfect sense,never thought of doing that!!, I believe this is one of the things I need to do to improve my setup, you can hear the nice diesel edge noise disappear higher up the range it would be nice if there was a way to make it adjustable, perhaps with an adjustable stop for the piston! I'm going to be looking closely at this . nice test setup btw. I been thinking about making something up to run it in the lathe

[Rickbu]

You've inspired me now mate, got another spare transit pump I'd built up already with boost top all back apart now to see what can be done with the piston. I'd like to be able to have some kindof adjustment with the pump in situ. Also got an rpm pickup that mounts to a pump so just need to bore and tap the fitting into the side - it counts the governor teeth.

[andypdq]

Hi Rick, LOL, it's rare I inspire anybody. If you shorten the piston at the spring end it will move further and give you more range. It may be your internal pressure is running low, which could explain your symptoms, as more static advance will mask the symptoms at low speed, but as engine speed increases, timing will lag progressively further behind the ideal.

When developing the MTDI pump for the Mk 6, everything was way out at first and progress was slowly getting nowhere. Because everything was non standard, we had no "near" starting point. I had to try different combinations of timing parts and pump pressures, to get the timing right, building the test bench was the key, because we could actually measure what was going on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaHNZEnOa_o.

This one should be easy in comparison, because we are starting with a pump which was actually made for the engine it's on, so it's more of a case of do the mods we want, then a few tweaks here and there.

While you have your pump apart, compare the geometry of your control levers with the original Transit ones.

[andypdq]

Hi Andy,yes I made a mistake in saying the low pressure is on the outside of the shaft and should have said inside.also when I said vane pump I did mean the inlet as the outlet simply pressurises the pump body, when I said it goes to the vane Pump I just assumed this to be obvious as like you say it would be pointless otherwise. Now with the high pressure of the pump body on the outside of the governor sleeve and the low pressure ( possibly even a vacuum depending on situation) of the inlet of the vane pump on the inside it means that the force will be constantly trying to close the sleeve down. ( the sleeve closing down increases fuelling so not sure how you come to the conclusion of the reverse effect) Which will increase fuelling. Where as the weights flung out by rpm are pushing the sleeve up ( the shaft) trying to decrease fuelling this also means that if the inlet of the pump starts to see a vacuum due to a blocked filter or higher demand the effect will be even greater as the body pressure will be higher in relation to the inlet pressure thus increasing the effect. you'll see that although I made a mistake between inside and outside the effect I describe is still the same. it's been a while since I looked at this problem but I say again I believe the feed to the governor shaft to be important and why wouldn't you bore it now while you have the chance. I wish I had

Hi Rick, There is a detail I missed, because frankly I hadn't noticed it before, I've not studied this feature closely because it's not used on the DI pumps I've been working on. If you look at the PDF diagram, bottom of page 39, you will see that the end of the governor shaft is blind, so the pressure difference is not transmitted to the inside of the sleeve, the governor sleeve has two holes , one near the tip, which is open when the sleeve is fully retracted, it balances any pressure difference between the void at the end of the sleeve and the pump case, it will always be open, whatever the position of the sleeve, to specifically avoid the situation we were talking about. So while the mechanism will adjust pump pressure and hence timing, it will never have any effect on governor operation. So we were both wrong, and we've both learned a bit more.

[Rickbu]

cheers for that! I had never thought to modify the timing piston. As for the internal pump pressure that's governed by the little piston and spring bypass isn't it. I guess I could up pressure by shimming the piston or machining up a longer one. Unfortunately I don't have any way to connect a gauge up because the top I used doesn't have the fitting in it for the nipple like the standard one. I suppose I could machine that out too while I'm doing the rpm counter, tbh it's good to chat about pumps with someone, it's very rare I find others who know anything about them, most avoid even adjusting them, oh by the way. Where did you get your cam plate with the higher lift? I have noticed that even different transit pumps have different profile cam plates.

[andypdq]

tbh it's good to chat about pumps with someone, it's very rare I find others who know anything about them, most avoid even adjusting them,

There are loads of innovative people doing it, hacking and modifying pumps which is where I picked up what knowledge I have, all engines from any manufacturer work the same, but all the people who are doing anything are on VW, Peugeot/Citroen or Dodge/Cummins forums, absolutely none from any Ford forums.

[Rickbu]

Not sure to be honest! Maybe that ford's are so reliable they rarely need messing with or that they are so good to start with etc etc , I have learned mostly out of necessity by fiddling.

[andypdq]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZxIEIVg8Yk]

Show me any similar IDI Ford engine of the era which was as good as the XUD, and no one has tuned them with the enthusiasm and dedication of these shed engineering boys. Mechanical pump 1.9 IDI does 230+ bhp, electronic remap, no thanks. Do it off your own bat, no chequebook tuning

[Rickbu]

the isuzu 1.7td engine takes tune extremely well and seems to be bullet proof. i have one running almost 2 bar on a standard turbo + lots of fuel been like that 5+ years and thrashed daily , it can be described as fast. id guess somewhere around 130 bhp . i think 82 as standard.

never personally had a pug but i have played with other peoples!

i have to agree and ill fight as long as i can not to have an electronicially controlled diesel engine. it was such a relief to loose the epic. and the isuzu 1.7 bosch pumped was a replacement for a vauxhall with a dead electronic pump.

keep up the good work!

[andypdq]

Another cracking engine of the era, Ford never made one as good.