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Turbo Injector pump

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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby Jim Archer » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:51 am

I looked into putting a LDA Landy pump on and there was a cylinder timing issue (different firing order?) and couldn't be arsed with modding/making new pipes.

Fitting the LDA unit is dead easy - you just swap the top of the pump over - and there's more than enough adjustment in the set-up, the issue for me was finding the correct cone to tailor the fuel curve as we weren't sure that the 2 motors used the same boost pressure. The pump tops are a stand alone fuel tailoring device that are only bought into play once delivery/demand becomes greater than a set rate.

As it was, mine being a N/A conversion, the stock 141 pump is more than able to cope with 85PS injectors. You do need to fiddle the fueling screws a bit to get good driveability and min smoke but it pulls like a train, and as said above is better on fuel than when it was a 70PS as you don't have to drive it on the boards as much - assuming you can resist the temptation of all that extra go :wink: .

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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby FEEZ92 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:54 pm

Have a look at this:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=85523

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2jxJHivf9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2jxJHivf9g

I took a 70ps N/A engine and turbo'd it. Its just waiting to be put in the van and the 130ps injectors put in
MORE BOOST!
MORE SMOKE!
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby steve868 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:55 am

Evening All!
Following this with a bit of interest.. have a project 'X' in mind..
I too would like to turbo a banana engine and use a bosch VE pump..
Reasons.. well we all like what we know.. I have a bit of a landrover history behind me.. and VE's can be tweeked nicely.. :)
I've read here.. 'different firing order'.... hmm.. if its only a matter of checking firing order landrovers run 1 3 4 2.. I thought most modern engines did too...
Ford generally won't reinvent the wheel.. so was hoping the banana would be the same...?? am I wrong??
As for the youtube T-Di .. very nice!! :D ... for a fun recreational vehicle.. don't think I'd enjoy leaving quite....That.. amount of soot behind me!!! :)
How do you compensate for the extra fuel needed in ' on boost'?? ... or is it a F&*% it!! & tweek up the fuelling?
what exhaust manifold did you use to mount the turbo on????- is it as easy a rotating the stock manifold????

Got more questions and suggestions.. but I'll wait and see what interest there is?????! :lol:

Cheers!

Steve
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby dieselhead123 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:10 am

steve868 wrote:Q. How do you compensate for the extra fuel needed in ' on boost'??
A. Fit a Manifold Pressure Compensator top to the pump, as below,
Image

Q. what exhaust manifold did you use to mount the turbo on????
A. I used a Focus 1.8 Zetec exhaust manifold, I removed the 'head flange' and replaced with a steel copy of the Transit Exhaust Manifold gasket. The triangular exit flange on the Zetec manifold, (where the cat connects), is the same fitting as the T3, although I have used a Toyota turbo.
Image
Steve


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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby FEEZ92 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:13 am

If I have enough boost it will clear all the smoke. I think the power limits of these lumps are due to the fueling system so it's a case of opening everything up to the MAX 8) :lol:

Stock manifold with the bottom port welded up and a new flange welded to the top
steve868 wrote:Evening All!
Following this with a bit of interest.. have a project 'X' in mind..
I too would like to turbo a banana engine and use a bosch VE pump..
Reasons.. well we all like what we know.. I have a bit of a landrover history behind me.. and VE's can be tweeked nicely.. :)
I've read here.. 'different firing order'.... hmm.. if its only a matter of checking firing order landrovers run 1 3 4 2.. I thought most modern engines did too...
Ford generally won't reinvent the wheel.. so was hoping the banana would be the same...?? am I wrong??
As for the youtube T-Di .. very nice!! :D ... for a fun recreational vehicle.. don't think I'd enjoy leaving quite....That.. amount of soot behind me!!! :)
How do you compensate for the extra fuel needed in ' on boost'?? ... or is it a F&*% it!! & tweek up the fuelling?
what exhaust manifold did you use to mount the turbo on????- is it as easy a rotating the stock manifold????

Got more questions and suggestions.. but I'll wait and see what interest there is?????! :lol:

Cheers!

Steve
MORE BOOST!
MORE SMOKE!
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby steve868 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:42 pm

Cheers Guys!
I like the simplicity of it all!! deffo the way to do it...
Sick of the the fly by wire electronic BS in the new stuff!!! Yes its powerful and economical- well only in fuel - the injectors and pumps cost almost as much as the vehicle itself :cry:

With the fabled 130hp injectors.. do they exist.. apart from in mythical part no: form???

I happen to have a NOS iveco turbo daily turbo- and a VE pump from the same...
Now to find some 8mm plate to make the flanges from.. :lol:
Happy Days!
Steve
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-she's an evil wench- and keeps telling me to keep up!
56 Transit lwb twin wheel minibus.....
05 Connect 230L TDCI 90 K&N & Scangauge 147k -long gone..
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby IgorVigor » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:53 pm

The 130ps injectors are marine rated :)

Easy to get though :D

I cant remember thr website off the top of my head, but I asked Feez in his TDi build thread and he posted a link (page 7 or 8)
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby dieselhead123 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:20 am

As the 'nose' of the pump case and the shaft are peculiar to the Transit pump, you will need to use a Transit N/A pump as the basis for your conversion.
You can fit the Iveco Daily Manifold Pressure Compensator top to the Transit pump, complete with throttle spindle, but the spindle is on the opposite side of the case, I have not yet found a top with the spindle on the same side as the Transit.
This unfortunately means that the throttle pulls from the opposite side of the pump and some 'adjustment' is necessary to connect the cable.
You also need to 'blank' off the fuel supply pipe connection at the base of the pump that fed the now removed N/A top.
I cut off the banjo fitting and soldered up the pipe, re-fitting this with the original banjo bolt.
It is good to see that there are others out there that have managed to resist the 'lure of the spark plug' in their quest for performance :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby IgorVigor » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:42 pm

I think I might be able to solve your throttle problem Tim :D

I know what you mean about the throttle pull, as most Bosch Pumps rotate the spindle anti-clockwise to increase throttle (looking at the top of the pump)

the transit spindle turns clockwise to increase throttle......


however, you might want to find yourself a Rover 2.0TD pump (1990's)....(its the L series diesel I believe)
they have a Bosch VE with an LDA, with a throttle spindle that turns clockwise to increase fuel :D

I was looking for a LDA equipped VE for the top, but I didn't want to re-route the throttle cable (I've had to on other vehicles and it can be a lot of fiddling :shock: )


I hope its of some interest to you?
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby dieselhead123 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:07 am

Right then lads, it would appear that a Bosch pump with LDA was fitted to some turbo di's, 70ps model, non UK markets :D
This pump has a clockwise throttle and uses the same throttle linkage as the N/A pump :D
Unfortunately, those of us in the UK are not likely to find one :(
This is no doubt the pump we would all be fitting to our turbo di's as opposed to the N/A unit that circumstances forces us to use.
The solution is to build one yourself 8)
I will post up the information required to do this next week, the source of the information I provide comes from Bosch ESi so can be considered reliable.
The turbo Bosch pump has a Ford part number, I contacted my Ford commercial dealer about this and they tell me it was fitted to a 1996-7 turbo di Transit.
I shall be providing you all with the Bosch part numbers for all the internal parts of the turbo pump that differ from the N/A unit.
Where possible, I will provide pump numbers for other pumps that contain the component parts required.
Some point of note, the governor spring assembly is different to any other Bosch part, also the cam plate profile is altered from the N/A unit.
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby TimothyUA » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:04 pm

I had 100 Ps TD engine and NOT 145/146 Bosh.
I can tell u 1 thing: when masters in Bulgaria had it tuned, i ran like hell. All advice on tourqu sleeve and overall fuelling screw is pale in comparison.
Humble Transit with none 145/146 pump ran better than Iveco up the hill
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby dieselhead123 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:25 pm

Right then lads, the Bosch LDA equipped pump fitted to the 70ps turbo models of the 2.5di, (non UK market, might be non EU), is Bosch part number 0 460 414 154, this equates to Ford part number 964T9A543AA and Ford confirm this to be fitted to a turbo di Transit, 1996-7 model.
Using the parts breakdown of this pump and the 0 460 414 145 pump fitted to the N/A models, we can see what the Bosch engineers altered for the turbo version. This would be a good starting point for any Bosch equipped 2.5di/tdi.

1) The pump is fitted with an LDA top, this needs to have a 'clockwise throttle operation', this will enable the existing N/A throttle control lever and spring assembly to be used, thus allowing you to connect your throttle cable without modifications to the linkages. The LDA top case is not available as a spare part from Bosch, so the only source is a pre-used unit. There are a few VE pumps commonly available in the UK that have 'clockwise throttle', many MAN commercials, (mid 1990's), use these but the only real option you have in the light vehicle field is the 1.4/1.7/1.9 Fiat diesels. I believe that 'Maltese Falcon' has used one of these. If you source a pre-used LDA top, it will come with the internals, some of these may need to be changed dependent on the pump that you acquire the LDA from. We will leave the internals of the LDA for a later time.

2) The Timing Device Piston, (advance unit), has a part number of 1 463 104 622 and is different to the one in the N/A pump, this does make some sense as the timing always has to be altered when fitting the N/A pump to a turbo di. This part is fitted in VE pumps fitted to some of these engines; MAN, Ford 3.9 Cargo and some Cummins engines, however these pumps are unlikely to be found at the right price so the part is best purchased from Bosch as a spare.

3) One of the two compression springs on top of the Timing Device Piston is also different, the smaller diameter one. Again, purchase from Bosch, part number 1 464 616 956, or search for a VW 1.9d pump and hope the spring is in good condition. The larger diameter spring is the same as the N/A pump.

4) The Screw Plug, in the center of the Fuel Head is changed, this is available in many VE pumps but it is probably easier to purchase a replacement, Bosch part number 2 463 452 001 will do for this.

5) The Cam Plate is changed for the turbo application, Bosch part number 2 466 110 125 is required. This part can be found in a number of pumps available in the UK, 0 460 414 993 fitted to a Renault 1.9dti engine, or 0 460 414 194/984/991/997, all fitted to 200tdi Land Rover engines. Fitting this part will require a complete pump strip down but is one of the alterations likely to have the most effect!

6) The Part Load Governor Assembly is different from that used in the N/A pump, this will need to be purchased from Bosch, part number 1 463 163 274, as it is specific to the turbo pump!

7) The Fulcrum Lever, this is the part that the Part Load Governor connects to is also specific to the turbo pump. Bosch part number 1 461 907 182 is required.

8) The Control Valve is changed, Bosch part number 1 460 362 477 is required. Pump numbers 0 460 424 125/137/139/141/145/146/147/148/152 all contain this part. These pumps can be found on 2.8tdi Iveco and Renault vans.

9) The banjo bolt used to connect the fuel return line to the pump is changed from that used on the N/A variant. This contains a 'fuel restricter', part number 1 463 456 344 is required. This can be found on Iveco/Renault 2.8tdi pumps as above, 0 460 424 125 being an example.

10) Similar to above, the fitting into which the banjo bolt fits is changed, this is part of the fuel restricter, Bosch part number 1 463 457 312 is required. Again, the 0 460 424 125 pump should provide this part.

The only other thing that you need to do is to blank off the external fuel supply at the base of the pump as the LDA does not require this.

The above may seem like a lot of work, but it is only 10 different parts in a pump that has over 200 individual components, and bare in mind that Bosch bothered to change them for a reason.

Given the chance of a Bosch factory turbo pump, we would all be fitting these along with our turbos, but as they were never fitted to UK specification Transits, we have to make our own :D
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby martindodge » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:59 pm

I have a Leyland 400 with a transit turbo DI out of an ambulance fitted and I have just fitted a complete 200 TDI discovery pump to it, which involved some re-engineering of the engine to pump mount to get it to fit. However it all works and has proper boost sensing fuelling with almost no smoke at all.
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby Mfr » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:31 pm

I have a Leyland 400 with a transit turbo DI out of an ambulance fitted and I have just fitted a complete 200 TDI discovery pump to it, which involved some re-engineering of the engine to pump mount to get it to fit. However it all works and has proper boost sensing fuelling with almost no smoke at all.


Sounds good, how easy was it? any chance of a pic of the pump fitted to the block? :)
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Re: Turbo Injector pump

Postby martindodge » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:33 am

I have pics of the installation and finished engine, but no idea how to put them on here. any suggestions?
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