1998 2.5TD EPIC pump- Sometimes starts, sometimes not

[Fordtractorman]

Hello all,

Vehicle is- 1998 150 VAN, Manual gbox, 2.5 TD EPIC inj pump setup. 119,000 miles on clock.

I have owned this van for 15 yrs, but have noticed a few problems within the last 3 to 4000 miles-

1) - If you attempt to start van first thing in morning, without touching any of the pedals, engine roars into life (Regardless of outside air temp) and stops on its own one second latter. If attempt to re-start, it will swing over with no sign of firing for at least 20 seconds (Which is bad for poor old starter motor!!). Will occasionally do this problem with a warm engine. I have found a trick to get round this- Only ever start engine with a Tiny bit of foot throttle- and hey presto instant start (Cold or hot engine). However it has got to the stage where im having to press down more and more on foot throttle to get round this problem. To be clear- there is plenty of speed on the starter. The check engine red light has not appeared. This light has always stayed on for no more than one second after she starts. Im told that is normal procedure. Never ever comes on again. Been like that for 40,000 miles. Also engine shuts off on key, correctly.

2) 50% of the time, there is a tiny sensation when driving (regardless of engine temp, or forward speed, or engine revs) of a kangaroo, jerky effect. Even if keeping foot throttle absolutely still. No big loss of power or revs, just a slight surging.

3) 10% of the time when engine very warm, e.g. 4 hours on motorway, there is a slight loss of power when going up hill. But only slight. Never does it when stone cold.

On the whole, engine ticks over extremely smooth, revs up smoothly, no smoke, very good emissions figures. Im only the second owner and this vehicle has always had oil, filters changed every 5000 miles. Cambelt kit put on at 90,000 in 2012. Was planning on changing cambelt at 120,000 miles. All fuel leak off lines, fuel lift pump renewed and return pipe mod fitted at 115,000 miles.

Problem number 1 is getting worse and worse. Yesterday, she would not start even with 100% foot throttle! Ive been told that EPIC system doesnt have much tolerance for potential stretched cam belt? Also ESOS solenoid prone to fail? Foot throttle potentiometer?

No one round here (West Shropshire) has a scanner that can talk to EPIC. Apparently only the laser 2000 and one other scanner can do it. None of others are worth bothering with!

Where do i go from here lads? Im not one for 'Keep fitting parts till the problem is cured' way of working!! Apparently-

MinorMatt

AndyG

and many more on here, are really good with the EPIC system.

Any ideas folks?

[Altransit]

I'm no expert, but in my humble opinion, you're pushing your luck with an eight year old timing belt

[MinorMatt]

Either someone has bodged your engine management lamp, or its not an issue with the EPIC at all.

My first thought is a small air leak on the diesel supply pipes allowing the fuel to run back over time.

The van will start on the fuel in the pump itself, then cut out when there is no more. If you have higher revs this pumps fuel up quicker to start with masking the problem...

And yes - you need a new cambelt. 40 or 50,000 mile interval (dependant on age of van) and a 5 year limit are the max recommended intervals.

[Fordtractorman]

Thanks for all replies gents.

How long should the red engine management light stay on for, after startup? Mine disappears after about one second. Yes, im def going to change the cambelt + tensioner.

Ive heard these EPIC systems are designed with a reasonable amount of scope for altering timing (2 degrees?) on their own, to take into account for things to be worn/stretched. If I had genuine EPIC/electrical probs, id be getting error codes and in extreme cases id get limp mode ?. Never had either in the last 15 years.

Air leak? I did think that also, hence I fitted a new lift pump- as i was lead to believe there are non return valves in there, as many pumps have.

Pipework between lift pump, fuel filter head seem to be those plastic push fit/quick release modern style designs. Probably an o-ring/seal in there. Do those o-rings cause trouble?

I do recall the last fuel filter i put on, 5000 miles ago, was a different make to normal, and was rather a pig to fit. My setup has the black plastic twist ring holding filter on. Could that filter be sucking in air?

Engine is very dry, no leaks at all. Something is causing the starting problem to get worse as the years roll on.

[MinorMatt]

If there are no stored fault codes it should go out as the engine starts. If there are minor faults, or historic ones recorded it stays on for 5 seconds.

Yes +- 2 degrees, and if its outside that it will go in to limp mode and get error codes.

The O rings have been known to cause issues. If you are careful you can use grease to make a temporary seal on the connections for diagnostic purposes and yes it could be the filter and it is known that some are not a great fit and cause issues. If the issue has only started since the change that's the 1st place I would start. Genuine Ford/Motorcraft or Bosch are the best bet

[Fordtractorman]

Yes i was thinking about trying a genuine motor craft fuel filter. Has a part number for push fit connector o-rings ever been released? Or has it just been the complete plastic pipe assy offered? Ive worked on other makes whereby such o-rings are special green or blue ones. Regular basic black ones break down and find way into fuel lines.

Also, im just ordering a new cam belt kit. Question-

Does the EPIC turbo setup have a different cambelt to basic non turbo setup?

[Altransit]

Turbo belt and tensioner are no different to the non-turbo, yours being a '98 should be a 28mm belt, they were 25mm pre-mid 1997

[Fordtractorman]

The EPIC saga continues.

So far-

Removed old fuel filter.
Whilst filter off, I took the opportunity to check cam belt timing- so removed flywheel speed sensor, rotated crank until i found the 'All the way through flywheel' 13mm hole. Then removed little rubber bung in front of inj pump gear. Had a look in there and the slot lined up perfectly. Inserted a drill bit in there also. Fitted great. So the timing cant be too far off. I have a new belt + tensioner on order, and will put it on this week.

Removed all drill bits and re-assembled area. Fitted new genuine Ford fuel filter. Swapped over old fuel in water sensor and new flat seal o-ring off new filter in base. The silly three dimple, push up, and thread on black plastic round neck collar idea filter. I do hate these. Removed and re-fitted twice to be sure it was seated. It seemed to be. Black plastic locking collar was screwed up tight ALL THE WAY ROUND CIRCUMFERENCE as it should be. Pointer scribe line in plastic also aligned correctly.

Every one says these filter systems (1997-2000) are self bleeders. Even Mr.HAYNES!! But ive learnt over the yrs to take what Mr.Haynes says with a pinch of salt!!! Sometimes he talks boll*cks!
Eventually got engine started. This van has two 642 batteries. Each being 1000 CCA. So we have plenty of speed at starter motor. Engine had a little cough for a sec or two, but soon cleared. After 5 mins of smooth running, she developed a slight miss fire/ slight hunting. Left run for another 20 mins, on various revs, but the slight miss was still there. Left her ticking over for 30 mins. Hunting got much worse by now. Left her run. Opened fuel tank cap with other key, incase of any vacuum/tank issues. No change.

No visible leaks anywhere. Continued to let her run. Hunting got so bad, she stopped on her own. So keyed off. Let her 'calm down' for 10 mins. Tried to re-start, but no sign of firing. Turning over plenty of speed, but not attempting to fire.

So day latter, i disconnected both push fit fuel pipes off lift pump. Got compressor and blew down pipe leading back to fuel tank. Several long bursts and plenty of bubbles in tank. I never let tank drop below half full, as ive heard many horror stories about this! Tank is currently 95% full. Re-fitted pipe back onto outermost port (suction) of lift pump. Assistant cranked engine. Plenty of strong squirts of fuel. Lift pump has only done 2000 miles. So reconnected red (Innermost) connector on lift pump. Followed that pipe up round back of head and unplugged it from fuel filter hsg. Got assistant to crank engine. Again, good bubble free squirts present.

Ive heard lots about the silly fuel filter hsg going wrong. Those four silly female push fit connectors are just begging for trouble! So to eliminate that, i removed the whole lot. Then connected up the four male fuel pipes with two short lengths of 7.5mm fuel hose, to bridge the gap. Then unscrewed the male union on the feed (Front) pipe going directly into inj pump. Got assistant to crank engine. Good strong spurts coming out of pipe. Reconnected union. Then unscrewed the union next to it (exit/return from inj pump) and got assitant to crank engine. Good spurts coming from there. Re-connected union.

Next, cracked off injector pipes 4, 3 and 2. Got assistant to crank engine. NO FUEL THERE. Attempted to crank engine for 10 sec bursts every 20 mins through out day, whilst monitoring starter motor + leads temperature. Still no sign of good strong squirts of fuel from injector pipes.

Has my EPIC injection pump got so confused after several dozen/maybe hundreds of rotations of flywheel, but not actually fired?? This can happen on some other makes. System doesnt know what is going on by now. Have left it for today, with earth leads removed from batteries to try and hopefully let EPIC system/ECU rest itself. Im told this SOMETIMES can help.

Im not sure what to think now. Have i got EPIC system issues? Until engine starts i cant say yes or no to question of- Red engine management light on dash on or not? Its always on during cranking. Thats how they are. I must confess, in the 15 odd years ive owned this van, that light has never once come on/flickered, during normal driving. Yes the bulb works! This van is extremely original. No bodging. Im only the second owner. First was environmental agency, who always used Ford dealerships.

This is the first time in 120,000 miles that the EPIC system has let me down. So they cant be that unreliable.

Have i missed something in bleeding?

Calling all EPIC fans for ideas!

[Fordtractorman]

UPDATE (02/12/2020)

Today, new cambelt kit arrived. It was a genuine Gates version. Before removing old belt, i lined everything up and just checked if all three timing pins (Drill bits) would align- Yes they did, perfectly.

Removed old belt and tensioner. Visually inspected old belt- didnt seem too bad. Teeth were all good. Hardly any persihing. But they do go wrong. We all know that. And she was overdue to have a new one. Rotated engine and checked alignment of drill bits 3 times. ALL ok each time. Re-fitted everything and tried to start.

Exactly the same as before. No change with new cam belt correctly timed up. Still NO fuel at the injectors.

[MinorMatt]

Just a thought... you haven't managed to get the feed/return pipes swapped over have you?

[Fordtractorman]

Thats a good shout about feed/return pies incorrect.

My current setup is-

(When standing in front of engine looking at it)

Lift pump on r/h side of block- Outermost pushfit pipe (black) seems to be feed from tank. That is pushed onto outermost metal stalk pipe on lift pump. Innermost metal stalk pipe on lift pump has red plastic push fit connector. That then goes up behind engine and feed into fuel filter hsg. Then goes off to FRONT port on EPIC inj pump. Then exit out of inj pump via another port immediately next to it. Pipe then takes fuel back to fuel filter hsg, then out to return pipe back to tank. Immediately behind cyl head there is a T piece in that same return line to accommodate the the fuel exiting the injector leak off pipeline which comes from No.1 cyl injector (So leak off modification has been done).

Does all that sound about right folks?

[Fordtractorman]

Does a 1998 EPIC injection pump have any bleed screws on pump body itself? I cant find any. Crap design if it doesnt have any!!!

Also, im led to believe that unless an EPIC is 100% full and 'tight' with fuel pressure for startup, certain internal valves/pistons wont move under hyd action as their supposed to? and then prob report back to electrics that pump internal mechanisms are in wrong 'position' ??

Which in turn, may get the electric side of the EPIC system confused?

From what ive learnt so far Lucas EPIC pumps have been used on Ford, French cars, Fiat, Volvo, Mercedes. All seem to comment that the slightest amount of air bubbles causes an EPIC to throw toys out the pram. Not enough tolerance for things not being 100% perfect.

'Mr Joseph Lucas- The prince of evil' !!!!

[Chug]

Have you tried it with easy start to see if it is just a lack of fuel?

But the pumps can be a right pain to bleed, I thought there was a bleed nut somewhere on the side at the top of the pump but I maybe confused with the earlier pump.
If not hooking up an electric fuel pump like a facet might help to push the air through, that's what I do with Bosch pumps, or try a tow start which will turn the engine over faster.

[MinorMatt]

I'm trying to remember the fuel line configuration on the EPIC, and which one is feed and which is return - but I am going to have to look at a van to work it out.

I don't have either of my EPIC vans with me atm - just to complicate things slightly