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Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby marcrbarker » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:40 pm

My injection pump is part dismantled anyway. I've been doing some experiments which appear on another discussion thread. Everything is accessible for me.

I can tie up the loose ends, rotor position sensor (its green, black and red wires) connected to the Epic big round socket, pin numbers


Source: visual inspection
Axial position sensor 0-5 V analogue voltage signal.

    PUMP/ red / pin 17 /=/ brown-red [5.0 V ! ] / ECU pin 6(?)
    PUMP/ black / pin 14 /=/ white-green / ECU pin 9(?)
    PUMP/ green / pin 13 /=/ white-black / ECU pin 12(?)
2021-09-25 17.55.17.jpg

Note these harness colours/ pin numbers 13,14 are transposed of what's published in "vehicle wiring diagram my97" of LDV EPIC data.
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby marcrbarker » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:25 pm

Some more info . Note the 'resistance connections' of the sensor inside pump are different to each other each time

Source: EPIC Training ManualC7659S en 9/96
Image1.png

______________________________________________________________________

Source: visual, confirmed by photo. (note ECU pin numbers 6,9,12 assumed)
2021-09-26 23.10.01.jpg

Note colours don't match published
______________________________________________________________________

source: LDV EPIC DI Engine Management System
Image2.png

Note colours don't match visual
______________________________________________________________________

source: LDV EPIC DI Engine Management System
image3a.png


By pure coincidence, the first ever time I worked on this van it was to repair poor running, smoke, and it was these same three red/black/green wires where problem was. A pin in the round connector had popped out of its place and was not making contact. All I had to do was press the wire to click the pin back into place.
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby The-Duke » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:18 am

Good morning... I have good news: With the excellent support here, the van now got out of limp mode. As expected, EML stays on for about 5s after starting the engine and then turns off. Thanks so much :!:
(Marc, do you think you can send me the "EPIC Training Manual", just in case? It seems to contain more/different information. There's also a link but that's inaccessible for me).

What I finally did:
* The two NR (brown/red) wires weren't transposed, could confirm this with the expected voltage readings.
* Soldered the axial sensor's wires like they should be. black/green were indeed swapped as already suspected. Probably the connection during my first attempt wasn't good because I only had twisted the wires together.
* Replaced the 6.8k resistor I put in for the calibration with a 100 ohms one because with the latest fault code reading, the ECU appeared to be unhappy about the 6.8k one. This isn't 100% confirmed though.

Anyway, so far the van is back at working correctly from the electrical point of view.

Unfortunately, it turns out that the pump is also leaking a bit, probably from the area that the pump's RPM sensor is located at (there's a small plastic cover on the lower right, looking at it from the front). Replacing its gasket (that "square" O-ring?) should be fairly easy, but requires the pump to be removed. I'm unsure about whether to attempt this myself. Is there a how-to somewhere? Been searching, but couldn't find anything so far that lists the required steps for extraction and re-fitting.

But before that, I'll have to replace all the soldered wiring with some pluggable solution...
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby MinorMatt » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:45 am

Yes the pump has to be "removed" for access - but that only means unbolting the pump - I have done it without disconnection of the electrics and fuel pipes
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby marcrbarker » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:35 am

What's probably confusing is the way it's built with green and black crossed over. Not knowing this, one would assume it's supposed to be black to black, green to green.

I've just PM'd you. You've probably noticed there's so many fake service manual hosted on the 'net, there's even manuals 'hosted' on fake discussion forums that just exist for harvesting credit card numbers.

Leaks drip downwards and give impression something at the bottom of the pump leaks. Otherwise it's stuffing various blobs of kitchen roll paper all over in different places and seeing which one wets first. Someone ought to invent a coloured dye that changes through the colours of the rainbow on contact with air as it flows.

The 'square o ring' sensor underneath under the plastic cover, called a "speed/position sensor (Hall sensor)" in the documentation, be careful with, it's position adjustable with slots and you need to put it back where you found it. It's actually a 'psuedo' needle lift sensor, this engine doesn't have a actual real needle lift sensor.

I would use a solder-bucket D connector, as you're already soldering.
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby The-Duke » Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:31 pm

Yes, that's what I thought as well about the wire colors. But if I were the guy that has been doing this job, I wouldn't rely on the colors and do the wires one-by-one.

Thanks for the document. Yes, there are lots of fake documents around. What I meant was the link in this forum viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59343 that seems to require additional access rights.

That bottom location was a first guess, this will indeed need some more diagnostics. Surrounding the whole thing with kitchen roll paper is actually a good idea. I do hope it's the RPM/Hall sensor, because that would be an easy fix, as opposed to the "main gasket" between the pump's halves. Thanks for the warning about the position.

I think I'll go with a more "automotive" suitable solution, using two "delphi metri-pack 150 automotive" plugs with 8 and 10 pins. The one with 8 will get the actuator/valve wires, the other one the nine sensor-wires. I think fitting the single pins on the wires will be easier instead of having to handle the large sub-d plugs. There's not much space, the wires are short and I already cursed a lot when putting together the last two wires and the cal-resistor.
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby Altransit » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:15 pm

The-Duke wrote:. What I meant was the link in this forum viewtopic.php?f=31&t=59343 that seems to require additional access rights.

That thread was moved out of general sight because the OP had deleted the images of the manual, so it was useless :(
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby The-Duke » Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:23 pm

Hi again, just a quick update: the pump was removed and successfully refitted. The square seal of the RPM sensor has been replaced and the leaking from there has stopped. So, two problems solved, but there's another:

Unfortunately, now it turned out that there is another leak at rotor sensor at the very end.

rotor-sensor-seal.png


Does anyone know the exact dimensions of that o-ring? The one that was removed and supposedly faulty is around 33mm x 1.5mm. But trying to fit one with these dimensions doesn't succeed because it seems the o-ring is about 1mm too large to properly stay in place. At least while the pump is mounted, it's impossible to fit the sensor without damaging the seal.

Should I try to get an o-ring with some other dimension or is this the correct size but it's mandatory to replace that seal with the pump taken out again?

Thanks,
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby MinorMatt » Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:04 pm

That seal can be done with the pump in situ - its a little fiddly but I have done it on more than one occasion. Unfortunately I don't have the dims for it - but of you find out would you mind posting as I need to build my stock back up!
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby The-Duke » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:49 pm

Being carefully optimistic, it seems this leak is also gone now. The o-ring that has been used is 32.1mm x 1.6mm - by feeling, I'd say 32mm x 1.7mm could be even better, but that's just guessing...

Cheers
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Re: Transit 2.5TD 1996 - EPIC problems

Postby marcrbarker » Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:12 pm

The-Duke wrote:Being carefully optimistic, it seems this leak is also gone now. The o-ring that has been used is 32.1mm x 1.6mm - by feeling, I'd say 32mm x 1.7mm could be even better, but that's just guessing...

Touch wood. Before I invested in a complete pump service kit I used to buy various size odd loose o-rings to choose from and works quite well.


rockdee733 wrote:Thanks a lot. You don't happen to know how the rotor position sensor (its green, black and red wires) usually is connected to the EPIC socket, i.e. its pin numbers?

If you scroll up to viewtopic.php?f=4&t=210355&start=15#p1746922 there's a photo showing where goes the red/green/black wires on the round connector, this might help you.

I often confuse the "rotor position sensor" (0-5V analog signal) with the so-called "RPM sensor" (pulse train), the latter has the square o-ring and is actually a psuedo- needle lift sensor that affects the timing and has to be put back at the same place on it's slots.
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