fast idle after dsl pump change on 1999 dsl turbo

[dogmovers]

Hi there,

My 1999 diesel turbo is starting fine but once warmed up the idle speed increases to around 1800 RPM and stays there the rest of the day. Runs fine apart from that. it does have other issues but nothing that seems to be related.

It's a problem that no one locally seems to be able to figure out, thought someone on this forum may have come across it in the past but can't find any reference to anything close in the posts.

This started after a reconditioned Diesel pump was fitted, (Lucas EPIC) the previous one was diagnosed as running rich, bringing up the EML. obviously this brings the pump into suspicion but no one here seems to think that the pump is causing the problem. The van was running generally Ok before the pump change.

Timing has been rechecked, Timing belt and tensioner and Injectors are relatively new, only recent codes found reffered to the EGR. not particularly smoky. Does have a probable Altenator issue to be dealt with. Also appears to have a bit of blow by causing excess oil in the intake manifold, there is some oil leaking from the rear of the intake butterfly. having said that I travelled about 5000km in it this past week, towing all the way, around Queensland and it used less than 500ml of oil. so not a major concern.

Have tried disconnecting the EGR, no difference and I can't see any way the EGr would cause this issue anyway. I can't find any vacuum leaks.

The key point is probably the fact that when it is started cold it idles around 800rpm until it is warm and then increases gradually up to between 1700-1900rpm. It does idle a bit roughly at the 800rpm and was doing that before the pump change.

Let me know your thoughts and thanks in advance for any help you may have.

Dave.

[roseman]

Hello there, if I wre you I`d check the SEALS on the turbo. If oil is getting past; then the engine will treat that in just the same way that it treats diesel. i.e. It will burn (it):result is increased engine speed. If it is the seals; dont leave it too long as this can `OVERFUEL THE ENGINE, with unfortunate consequence. Just ask a MK3 DISCO owner.

[AndyG]

What was the actual code reader used for diagnosis

Has the pedal "idle demand" micro switch been tested

Possibly the EPIC temperature sensor not reading correctly ( Tried disconnecting it )

As this fault wasn't there before the pump was changed, isn't it likely to be the pump and isn't this under warranty

[dogmovers]

Hello there, if I wre you I`d check the SEALS on the turbo. If oil is getting past; then the engine will treat that in just the same way that it treats diesel. i.e. It will burn (it):result is increased engine speed. If it is the seals; dont leave it too long as this can `OVERFUEL THE ENGINE, with unfortunate consequence. Just ask a MK3 DISCO owner.

Hi there Roseman, thanks for that.

The oil in this instance is coming from the crankcase via the breather on the oil filler cap. from there it enters the air intake system before the Turbo and carries on through the intake manifold. I have had the Turbo checked in the past and don't believe we have a problem there. The question would be i guess is there too much crankcase pressure that is causing this? Is it usual? Or if the oil is leaking at the intake butterfly does that mean there is also a pressure leak there that could be causing other issues?

The other thing that leads me to believe that it is not the oil causing the problem is that the engine is not over running when turning it off. Also the high revving at idle is very consistent, not rough or hunting. Almost like the idle has just been turned up, but of course that is not possible on this EPIC pump.

Thanks, Dave

[dogmovers]

What was the actual code reader used for diagnosis

Has the pedal "idle demand" micro switch been tested

Possibly the EPIC temperature sensor not reading correctly ( Tried disconnecting it )

As this fault wasn't there before the pump was changed, isn't it likely to be the pump and isn't this under warranty

Hi there Andyg,

I bought the pump via EBay, so no warranty. The pumps are about $3500 reconditioned here so i was trying to save a bit of money. I have spoken to the seller and had feedback from the reconditioners regarding it. it had been tested but not used since reconditioning. obviously it is up at the top of the list as far as causes are concerned but to be honest, if i was going to have to be spending $4000 fitted to replace it, it won't be happening.

if it comes to that I would consider changing it to a manual Rotary pump or converting the van to a V6 petrol. It is likely that I will convert it to a V6 eventually as I have all the gear i would need in a previously converted van with a blown motor. That is running a 3.8 litre Commodore motor and auto gearbox.

I had been aware the pedal may be a cause but had thought it would not start and run normally until warmed up if this was the case. not sure how to check that one. would it just mean it needed replacing if that was the fault?

When it is idling high it will drop back to normal for a while if I turn the air con on. but it will go back up after a minute or two once it adjusts to this extra load.

There appear to be two seperate temperature sensors. the vans guage is working normally, is one sensor specifically for the ECU? i will try disconnecting them both one at a time and see if anything changes.

can the temp sensors cause this issue? I am not aware that the temperature of the cooling sytem would usually cause increased or decreased revs.

thanks for the ideas, i will let you know if any of that makes a difference.

Dave

[AndyG]

[dogmovers]

OK, so I have run the van with both temp sensors disconnected and had the same results. No change.

So it seems to be temperature related, as the RPM will increase gradually from a cold start until the engine is hot. But if it is doing that without the temp sensors connected then it must be doing it as a physical reaction to the temperature rather than on a signal from the ECU because of the temperature rise.

would air intake temperature matter? i am not aware of any temp monitor on the air intake.

I disconnected the accelerator pedal and no change apart from the red light. this was the same if i disconnected it before I started the van. I don't know if there is any other way to check that but as the van starts out fine on normal idle RPM I think it is an unlikely issue.

I checked with the Auto electrician, the scan tool he uses on this is a Hanna tech multiscan.

So in the absence of any other possibilities it is obviously likely to be the pump having been set up incorrectly. The problem with that is that from the info I can gather there is not anything within the pump that would cause this issue either. There is an internal cold start idle device but that is designed to increase the revs when cold, not when hot. if the timing / calibration of the pump wqas wrong then it would not be likely to run OK till it heated up, especially since the temp sensors are not sending the offending signal. Apparently the fuel "jet" would have to be very badly damaged to allow this and still would not account for the change as it warms up.

Compatability of the pump? I did check before we fitted it and was told it was compatible, the numbers do differ from the original. Old pump 8720 B031A, replacement 8720 A011A

The problem I have now is that even if I replace the pump again I can not be sure it will solve the problem.

Any other last minute ideas anyone?

thanks, Dave

[AndyG]

I checked with the Auto electrician, the scan tool he uses on this is a Hanna tech multiscan.

The reason I asked, was to see if they were using a Lucas Laser 2000

The only thing left, that will indeed affect hot running is the "leakback trim"

This can only be carried out by Fords or a Diesel specialist using a Lucas Laser 2000

It's a calibration that compensates for the amount of fuel flow through the pump (AFAIK)
Basically, it "balances" the pump via the ECU

It is a completely automatic process that the Laser 2000 can carry out and only takes about 20 seconds

There are flow and return electronic actuators valves that control how much fuel should be allowed in the pump (controlled via the ECU) and the amount will control the speed of the engine (ie in your case, actuator valve out, not allowing as much out as it should)

This is where I feel your problem is
So now it's a matter for you to ring around and find out who can carry out this procedure

[dogmovers]

I checked with the Auto electrician, the scan tool he uses on this is a Hanna tech multiscan.

The reason I asked, was to see if they were using a Lucas Laser 2000

The only thing left, that will indeed affect hot running is the "leakback trim"

This can only be carried out by Fords or a Diesel specialist using a Lucas Laser 2000

It's a calibration that compensates for the amount of fuel flow through the pump (AFAIK)
Basically, it "balances" the pump via the ECU

It is a completely automatic process that the Laser 2000 can carry out and only takes about 20 seconds

There are flow and return electronic actuators valves that control how much fuel should be allowed in the pump (controlled via the ECU) and the amount will control the speed of the engine (ie in your case, actuator valve out, not allowing as much out as it should)

This is where I feel your problem is
So now it's a matter for you to ring around and find out who can carry out this procedure

well surprisingly my own investigations yesterday came up with the fact that it was definately the pump, something to do with the fuel temp in the pump probably. but the guys I was talking to, (also using the Hanna tech) felt that the only cure was another pump.

Got your reply and found a specialist with a Lucas Laser 2000, about 45 minutes away. He says he can do the back trim, confirmed that it would cause the problem. But it won't usually work if EGR codes are present, which I do have. so i will see about the EGR first and then up to see what he can do for me.

Thank you Andyg, that could very well have saved me a few $$$, fingers crossed, will let you know how we go in due course.

thanks, Dave

[AndyG]

45 minutes away Well worth the drive
Make sure you post his details, so that we can recommend him as he seems good so far

Remove EGR valve and clean it as best as you can, then hopefully he can clear all "historic" fault codes and carry out the backleak trim

[dogmovers]

45 minutes away Well worth the drive
Make sure you post his details, so that we can recommend him as he seems good so far

Remove EGR valve and clean it as best as you can, then hopefully he can clear all "historic" fault codes and carry out the backleak trim

All sorted at last.

Got it Fixed by diesel australia, Slacks creek in brisbane. They have shown a far greater level of expertise and knowledge than anyone else i have been to up to this point. having the Lucas laser 2000 tool probably helped there. Apparently it took him 10 years to get hold of that scanner.

it was the pump, he tried to reset it with the aforementioned lucas 2000 but it would not respond to that. it turned out that there is not really anything wrong with the pump, it just did not like being on that van.

he rebuilt my old one with the help of a couple of parts off another spare I supplied. it cost $1860 and the one I had bought and put on is still OK to resell so it all worked out OK cost wise.

I had checked the codes before I bought it and had been told it was compatible with my van but clearly not by the right people.

once again, thanks for the help

[mrepson]

so the epic pumps are not all the same then.?? is it the power outputs,ie 85ps 100ps 115ps or do they go off the year.?

[MinorMatt]

not all epics are the same. Im probably wrong but there are 85,100 and 115PS variants and they do vary by year, pre '95, post '95 and 97 onwards.

115PS is only avaliable from '97

[dogmovers]

I had known they differred, i.e 85 or 100psi etc, plus the differences for early to late pump models. \

I had tried to double check that the pump I bought was compatible with my van and got two seperate positive advices based on the codes on the pump. most "experts" I have spoken to said there were three different calibrations. The repairer tells me there are actually 14 different variants, the difference, once you get past the physical differences between the early and late pumps is in the resistance across pins in the connector plug which he was able to test because he stil had my original pump to compare to the one I had fitted.

It seems that there is so much variation that it is better at times just to spend the money on repairing the original, which you always know will be compatible with the van.

dave

[soooo]

Hello all

I have exactly same problem.. after pump change i got nice fast idle ~1400rpm. When the engine is cold, idle speed drops down to 800rpm but soon when the engine warms up it goes to 1400rpm.

I have tryed to change 2pin resistor witch is in the pump connector, both old and new pumps have same gray number 6 resistor, multimeter reads 996ohms for both.

Can i adjust that "leakback trim" with Sykes ACR4? It found two EGR related fault codes and one MAP-sensor. RED LIGHT stays off all the time exept when turning ignition on. Few days ago i didnt hear whssssss sound from turbo anymore and torque was also completly lost, i think this is caused by map fault, but the high idle have been since i changed the pump.

I'm sorry for digging up this old thread Any ideas what to do or check next? Thanks.