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Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (ROG)

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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:19 pm

Not really off topic as it is a weight issue
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:25 am

I thought I would throw in this post as it might be useful for some ---

I have extensive knowledge on this issue and already have a trailer towing clinic HERE

Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles , those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM

Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form.
Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites.
Unladen or Kerb weight - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much
GVW - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
GTW - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
Towing capacity - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight.
None of the above weights must be exceeded


FOR B+E LICENCES
Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:-
CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800
TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000
The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800

Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used
GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden
EXAMPLE: -
VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000
TRAILER has MAM of 3500
The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal

FOR B LICENCES
The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B only licence -

To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say NO to the following:-
Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?
Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?
Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?

Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found....

Towing vehicle -
Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800

Trailer -
Unladen/empty = 800
MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing)

Load trailer with 700 max

Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -
The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500
The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing rule

I hope this helps those who are unsure of the rules
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby Mike » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:31 am

Can you sort out the formatting rog, that looks a mess.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby Altransit » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:44 pm

ROG can't do it, the BBcode and smilies are turned off in this section. I'll do it later when I'm on my own commie(unless another mod does it first)
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby ake » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:28 pm

Altransit wrote:ROG can't do it, the BBcode and smilies are turned off in this section. I'll do it later when I'm on my own commie(unless another mod does it first)

:wink:
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby Mike » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:31 pm

Well done Ake, posts like that need to be as clear as possible.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby ake » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:35 pm

We really should sort out the bbcode for this forum.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby apples26 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:53 pm

private use no tacho????? surely not? so if i have a car trailer on back of my recovery truck and i just say its my own car they cant do me for not having a tacho?
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby ake » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:29 am

apples26 wrote:private use no tacho????? surely not? so if i have a car trailer on back of my recovery truck and i just say its my own car they cant do me for not having a tacho?

Only if you can prove the car on the back is yours, ie registered and insured in your name, and also justify why you are moving it on a recovery, ie a show/concours or race car
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:17 am

If VOSA/police even slightly suspect that you are towing for business they will dig deeper if you say its personal
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby Stroppymonkey » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:54 pm

Ow... My brain hurts.

I just missed having the old style license and I remember having a massive Ding Dong with the DVLA as it was then (1998) because they couldn't tell me what I could or couldn't tow...

I've since taken my B+E because I was towing trailers as part of a balloon retrieve crew. I then found I couldn't do that either because we were using 12 sweater landrovers.. And that meant another test for the the vehicle and ANOTHER test to tow the trailer.. I gave up the job at that point.

I'm now struggling with my current situation. I have a Ford Ranger and use it to tow my 3.5ton trailer which I've just worked out is illegal but I probably don't need a tacho and an O-licence
I could get the trailer replated to meet the 3t towing capacity of the Ford, but I'm selling them both to save the hassle.

I need a small trailer for work (heating engineer) to carry empty IBCs for oil tank changes.

I've got 1 transit 280 and about to buy another with a tow bar..

Vehicle MAM is 2680 and train weight is 3500.

The smallest trailer I can get (that will be big enough) is an ifor williams gd85 single axle. Weighs 400 and plated for 1400

My vans are up near their MAM anyway with all the tools... But I only want to carry empty tanks around.

My actual train weight will be below 3500 but the vehicle MAM plus trailer MAM will be 4100ish.

So am I legal? Or do could I (can I??) get the trailer replated to a lesser MAM

It's so Damn complicated.

There should be a an App for this.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:31 am

Stroppymonkey wrote: I have a Ford Ranger and use it to tow my 3.5ton trailer which I've just worked out is illegal but I probably don't need a tacho and an O-licence
I could get the trailer replated to meet the 3t towing capacity of the Ford,

which numpty told you it was illegal? !!!!!!!!!!

There is no law or rule which states the plated MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the towing capacity of the towing vehicle and no law which states the combined vehicle GVW added to trailer MAM cannot be more than the GTW ..... but there are internet myths that say it though!
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby (ROG) » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:54 am

VOSA have stated that if a vehicle has a GTW of 3500 then it will not come into O licence and tacho regs no matter if the trailer MAM and vehicle GVW add up to more than 3500 - the reason is that legally the actual weight of the combination cannot exceed 3500

So that means if your transit is 2800 GVW and 3500 GTW towing a trailer with a MAM of 1600 it will not come under the regs

Licencing laws mean that such a combination will require the driver to have a B+E licence because the total plated weights add up to more than 3500 = 4400 in the above example


I do not know who is advising you but you certainly need better
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby 125neil » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:47 pm

Stroppymonkey, just to confuse you more ! If your Ford Ranger is only a small cab ( 2 door , 2/3 seat ) Ranger you probably need an O licence and tacho to be legal, If its a crewcab / 4 door Ranger it falls under the dual purpose vehicle exemption therefore you don't need an O licence but would require a tachograph.
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Re: Gross + train weight issues, licences & tachos Info by (

Postby Stroppymonkey » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:06 pm

It's all clear as mud!

So I don't need a o-licence.. Great.

Ranger is a supercab ...
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