New Injectors - Learning???

[Andyzot]

We've just forked out a small fortune to have the injectors replaced on our 2.4 E5 Mk7, they also replaced the EGR, all genuine parts.
The van is running rough when cold and not 100% when hot, the garage told us we must wait for the ECU to 'learn' the new injectors, I was under the impression this was a manual process that's done either with Forscan or other software.
Can anyone advise please?

[knobby1]

We've just forked out a small fortune to have the injectors replaced on our 2.4 E5 Mk7, they also replaced the EGR, all genuine parts.
The van is running rough when cold and not 100% when hot, the garage told us we must wait for the ECU to 'learn' the new injectors, I was under the impression this was a manual process that's done either with Forscan or other software.
Can anyone advise please?

You mention 2.4 E5 Mk7..?? Mk7 2.4 were not Euro-5....All Mk7 2.4's are Euro-4. If it is indeed a Euro-5 it will be 2.2.

We need to know which you have as they are quite different.

Lord Knobrot

[Andyzot]

Apologies, it is indeed 2.2

Long story....
When we bought her, she had the occasional issue starting when hot which got gradually more often, now I'm no mechanic, but I followed advice from here and the FB group and purchased Forscan and the appropriate adaptor and read the codes.
Initial indication seemed to point to the EGR valve, which I replaced with a unit from TPUK which didn't solve the problem, following advice I tried blanking it off, which did improve it for a while but then it got worse again.
So, again, following advice, I replace the following sensors, one by one, MAF, cranks and cam, no difference.
Decided to take it to a garage, they did a gas/smoke test, and said there was a small leak on the intercooler, so new intercooler, no difference, then I asked them to do a leak off test (following advice), they then said the injectors were knackered, and quote a hefty price tag to replace, so I went for a second opinion at another garage, apparently they did a leak off test and said the injectors were knackered and the EGR was showing an error code, so I forked out nearly £2k to get them replaced, they said they were genuine Ford parts.
We got the van back and it was worse than ever, a bit sluggish to start and around 2k rpm and not under load, she feels like she's hunting, the garage said we needed to run her for a while to allow her to learn the new injectors, after over 100 miles, she's the same so she's gone back to the garage and they saying they don't know what's wrong....what next?

[tranmx2]

This refers to the 2.2 RWD E5 Transit. The FWD could be different. There were changes in 2011.

she had the occasional issue starting when hot which got gradually more often. ECT sensor giving wrong reading. ECT sensor fitted under thermostat on RWD. IF gun can show aprox' temp on different engine areas for comparison.
Initial indication seemed to point to the EGR valve. EGR valve not closing can cause starting problems as exhaust gas introduced into inlet air system. EGR operated in conjucntion with throttle valve.
I replace the following sensors, one by one, MAF, cranks and cam. On the inlet manifold is the MAP can give ambient temp at cold start and ambient pressure. The MAP sensor can give air inlet temp and air pressure within the inlet air system. The MAP sensor can be gunged up. The inlet manifold and valves can be gunged up.
On the bottom lhs of the air inlet cooler is a temp sensor.
she feels like she's hunting - could be engine temp sensor related.
the garage said we needed to run her for a while to allow her to learn the new injectors, Valid statement on E5. The PCM's output is effected by the results of the various sensors the PCM's output can result in the wrong injector timming/quantity of fuel/number of injecions per stroke per cylinder.

Injector leak off test - used to be - to check the ability of the needle valve to seat/seal. The atomisation of diesel (detonation) was dependant on the pressure at the time of injection.
On some injectors fuel was used to cool the injector.
It seems there is some other purpose for carrying out - leak off - tests on electrically powered electronicaly controlled injectors.

Forscan has LIVE DATA which shows the FRP ECT etc at the time of running the engine. The various sensors to be looked at can be changed. SY Diagnostics vids on using Forscan.

[Andyzot]

Thank you tranmx2.
Well it's still with the garage at the mo, the annoying thing being that after over a month in total of being with them, they've probably spent no more than a few hours diagnosing and working on it, not that we can use it but we need to start working on the body work, were hoping for a re-paint before summer.

[Andyzot]

It's been at the garage now for 42 days in total!
After replacing the injectors and things being worse than before, they considered the cam sensor and timing, so replaced the sensor, no improvement, then got to the timing belt, which they say is in good condition with no issues.
Apparently, they struggled to remove the casing, snapping a bolt, but while they have it in this state they asked if we wanted the chain kit replaced at a cost of £475, they normally charge £800 but while they had it apart....so another £500 later and we're no further down the line....we're close coming to spending over half what we paid for the van in the first place but we're too far in to leave it now.

[knobby1]

It's been at the garage now for 42 days in total!
After replacing the injectors and things being worse than before, they considered the cam sensor and timing, so replaced the sensor, no improvement, then got to the timing belt, which they say is in good condition with no issues.
Apparently, they struggled to remove the casing, snapping a bolt, but while they have it in this state they asked if we wanted the chain kit replaced at a cost of £475, they normally charge £800 but while they had it apart....so another £500 later and we're no further down the line....we're close coming to spending over half what we paid for the van in the first place but we're too far in to leave it now.

Timing belt..?? They don't have a timing belt. Are you sure they're not having a lend and having your pants down..?? You need to get it to someone who knows what they're doing.

Lord Knobrot

[Andyzot]

That's me wording things incorrectly, I meant timing chain.

[tranmx2]

The van is running rough when cold and not 100% when hot.
Pos' due to damaged piston(s) under the pistons are oil squirters the oil helps to cool the pistons.
If the squirters get blocked - the piston can melt = low compression = poor engine performance when cold and hot.

Pressure passing the pistons/cylinder can be felt at the oil filler on the rocker box as pulsing. It'll do this when the piston/rings/bore is worn.
The increased crankcase pressure which is in the rocker box causes oil vapour to exit the vent to the inlet pipe before the turbo the result is oil/gunge in the inlet system which affects the inlet temp sensor and the MAP as well as other parts asscociated with the inlet system.

If when the injectors were out a compression test had been done the low compression state might have shown.

It could be interperated from the posts that the parts cannon is in use.

OP - then got to the timing belt, which they say is in good condition with no issues - likely means the serp belt.

If the compression has been lost - a recon engine is likely needed. Recon eng about £3000 + need the peripheries from the old engine.

If the loss of compression happened recently there may not be indications of oil/gunge.
White, grey, dark smoke out of the exhaust is another indication of a loss of compression.
The inlet pipe from the turbo to the inter cooler/heat exchanger could be lined with oil - but is gets oily anyway from the the usual oil vapour that comes from the rocker box vent.

If the garage get it running - check at the rocker box oil filler for pulsing. Check the exhaust for smokiness.
Check the mileage done. If you can find the way it was driven. If short journeys it is likely close to knackered. It takes 5 to 7 mins for the engine to reach operating temp.

[Andyzot]

Thank you, I'll bear all this in mind and discuss with the garage.