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Hot starting issue - all new parts

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Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby STARTYABASTARD » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:37 am

OK, here is the breakdown of repairs I've had done and the fault which just won't die.

TL/DR - Everything has been replaced but van hates hot starts. Go

Initial problem -
Van refused to start either hot or cold (would start with a can of startyab*stard). Air discovered in low pressure side of fuel system

Decided because it a good truck (mostly) and it's needed for my job, I'd give the VM a freshen up, so....

Replaced
Fuel tank pick up and lines (all new)
Fuel filter (which I discovered was sucking air back in when engine stopped)
Fuel pump (complete new unit)
Injectors (4 x new with new washers and bots)
MAP sensor
Turbo (oh yeah, decided to sh!t itself after replacing everything else) Didn't budget for that.
Timing chain was a bit slack so figured I've done this much I may as well do this too)
Reversing light switch
Stater motor
2 x batteries

I believe everything has been "Learned", however this is the only thing I cannot 100% confirm.

When the engine is cold she fires up 1st crank. Good crank speed and no smoke upon startup

When the engine is hot it almost feels as though the batteries are dead. Starter is slow and at times feels like compression lockup. Wait a few seconds, crank again and it might spin normally but still not start (sounds flooded). Eventually starts again but can take 10-20 cranks to get going. If I let is cool (say 30 min) she fires up 1st crank.

Once running, the van drives like new and has zero issues.

Could "Learning" be the issue, all parts are OEM with the exception of the turbo (actuator version). Are the electronics in these vans hardware coded (i.e the same parts but different ID when the ECU looks at it)?

I've dropped over "$9k in this freshen up" and I feel like I want to throw it away now.

Help?
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:51 am

STARTYABASTARD wrote:OK, here is the breakdown of repairs I've had done and the fault which just won't die.

TL/DR - Everything has been replaced but van hates hot starts. Go

Initial problem -
Van refused to start either hot or cold (would start with a can of startyab*stard). Air discovered in low pressure side of fuel system

Decided because it a good truck (mostly) and it's needed for my job, I'd give the VM a freshen up, so....

Replaced
Fuel tank pick up and lines (all new)
Fuel filter (which I discovered was sucking air back in when engine stopped)
Fuel pump (complete new unit)
Injectors (4 x new with new washers and bots)
MAP sensor
Turbo (oh yeah, decided to sh!t itself after replacing everything else) Didn't budget for that.
Timing chain was a bit slack so figured I've done this much I may as well do this too)
Reversing light switch
Stater motor
2 x batteries

I believe everything has been "Learned", however this is the only thing I cannot 100% confirm.

When the engine is cold she fires up 1st crank. Good crank speed and no smoke upon startup

When the engine is hot it almost feels as though the batteries are dead. Starter is slow and at times feels like compression lockup. Wait a few seconds, crank again and it might spin normally but still not start (sounds flooded). Eventually starts again but can take 10-20 cranks to get going. If I let is cool (say 30 min) she fires up 1st crank.

Once running, the van drives like new and has zero issues.

Could "Learning" be the issue, all parts are OEM with the exception of the turbo (actuator version). Are the electronics in these vans hardware coded (i.e the same parts but different ID when the ECU looks at it)?

I've dropped over "$9k in this freshen up" and I feel like I want to throw it away now.

Help?


OK...a few things...Firstly, You haven't told us if it's a Euro-4 or Euro-5...?? The 140 comes in both 2.2 and 2.4 RWD. What's the "build date"..?? I'll assume Euro-4. "VM" is an Aussie/Kiwi thing...usually it's just called a Mk7 in the UK which is where this forum is based and 95% of the members are.

Second, assuming it is a Euro-4....Were the new injectors coded into the PCM with their new 16 digit correction factors..?? If not, you're wasting your time, the PCM will still think the old injectors are fitted. They don't have an ECU as such.

Third, have all the learns been done after fitting the new pump & injectors..?? Were the SCV & PRV replaced..?? I assume the new pump came with a new SCV fitted..?? You need to confirm this as it is important. The TDCi pumps rarely fail and are often replaced for no reason.

Fourth, the fuel filter head is often the cause of air ingress into the fuel system, they crack and air gets in through the crack....and the fuel siphons back to tank.

Slow starting/turning over when hot is often the starter is not well, I know you've replaced yours but it could still be faulty. A poorly SCV and/or PRV can also cause difficult starting.

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby STARTYABASTARD » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:27 am

knobby1 wrote:
OK...a few things...Firstly, You haven't told us if it's a Euro-4 or Euro-5...?? I'll assume Euro-4. "VM" is an Aussie/Kiwi thing...usually it's just called a Mk7 in the UK which is where this forum is based and 95% of the members are.

Second, assuming it is a Euro-4....Were the new injectors coded into the PCM with their new 16 digit correction factors..?? If not, you're wasting your time, the PCM will still think the old injectors are fitted. They don't have an ECU as such.

Third, have all the learns been done after fitting the new pump & injectors..?? Were the SCV & PRV replaced..?? You need to confirm this as it is important.

Fourth, the fuel filter head is often the cause of air ingress into the fuel system, they crack and air gets in through the crack....and the fuel siphons back to tank.

Slow starting/turning over when hot is often the starter is not well, I know you've replaced yours but it could still be faulty.

Lord Knobrot


No sure if it Euro 4 or 5, I`ve always known it to be a 2011 VM 2.4 T350 (yeah, I`m an Aussie)

Injectors were coded, I know this because I struggled reading out the digits off them. Like, could they have made it smaller?

SCV was replaced with the new fuel pump. PRV (this is the common rail right?) was tested but not replaced as it was not leaking.

Fuel filter is possibly the worst I have had to work with, mine had a hairline crack causing air to enter. I have since installed a new aftermarket unit made of cast alloy. I've also installed a ball valve inline with the inlet fuel line to stop fuel leaking back into the tank (return line has no restrictions). So in theory, the inlet fuel line should always be filled with fuel and not air.

As I said, I believe the Learns were done but I wasn't there for the whole process.

I`m leaning towards the sh!tty battery terminals now as I`ve just noticed the bolt is tight but there is some movement on the battery post.

Thanks for your help
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:06 am

STARTYABASTARD wrote:No sure if it Euro 4 or 5, I`ve always known it to be a 2011 VM 2.4 T350 (yeah, I`m an Aussie)

Injectors were coded, I know this because I struggled reading out the digits off them. Like, could they have made it smaller?

SCV was replaced with the new fuel pump. PRV (this is the common rail right?) was tested but not replaced as it was not leaking.

Fuel filter is possibly the worst I have had to work with, mine had a hairline crack causing air to enter. I have since installed a new aftermarket unit made of cast alloy. I've also installed a ball valve inline with the inlet fuel line to stop fuel leaking back into the tank (return line has no restrictions). So in theory, the inlet fuel line should always be filled with fuel and not air.

As I said, I believe the Learns were done but I wasn't there for the whole process.

I`m leaning towards the sh!tty battery terminals now as I`ve just noticed the bolt is tight but there is some movement on the battery post.

Thanks for your help


Excellent...2.4 was never released as a Euro-5 as it couldn't pass the Euro-5 emissions standards...so she's a Euro-4.

PRV is the pressure relief valve at the rear end of the fuel rail, not the rail itself...

So you replaced the fuel filter head..?? The whole assembly??...if so, good.

You can do all the learns and fault diagnosis/checks yourself using Forscan, it's free to download onto a Windoze laptop and the interface cable is less than $20. Well worth the trouble as it costs a fortune to take it somewhere to just get them to plug in, let alone fix anything....plus the time to get there and back etc.. You can do all of this yourself in the comfort of your own home.

Change out the stupid genuine Ford battery terminals for something better, they're junk.

Lord Knobrot....also an Aussie....in Brisvegas.
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby STARTYABASTARD » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:52 am

Cheers LK

I've DL Forscan and already have a USB to OBDII cable so fingers crossed it works out tomorrow.
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby Altransit » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:35 pm

Is it worth checking/replacing the crank and cam sensors :?:

I'm sure that I've read on here, instances of the sensors being out of sync on a hot engine, but being within tolerance on a cold engine :idea:
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby knobby1 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:11 pm

STARTYABASTARD wrote:Cheers LK

I've DL Forscan and already have a USB to OBDII cable so fingers crossed it works out tomorrow.


Which cable did you get..?? you'll need the one with the switch so it can talk to the high speed bus etc...

Also what Altransit said, the cam/crank sensors can give grief if there's a bit of slack in the cam chain.

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby STARTYABASTARD » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:01 am

Altransit wrote:Is it worth checking/replacing the crank and cam sensors :?:

I'm sure that I've read on here, instances of the sensors being out of sync on a hot engine, but being within tolerance on a cold engine :idea:


I`ll add it to the list of enquiry...

I don't think it would cause the symptoms I'm having though (compression lock/slow cranking).
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby STARTYABASTARD » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:06 am

knobby1 wrote:
Which cable did you get..?? you'll need the one with the switch so it can talk to the high speed bus etc...

Also what Altransit said, the cam/crank sensors can give grief if there's a bit of slack in the cam chain.

Lord Knobrot


USB/OBDII is one I've had for a couple of years. Not sure of the brand but it has HSB switch.

Replaced Cam Chain. I don't think a faulty crank sensor would cause the compression lock/slow cranking symptoms though.
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby ned » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:48 am

I’ve had similar with a new starter that was faulty, cold no problem starting, hot just dead, surely the starter should have some warranty, if so take it back and exchange it.
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Re: Hot starting issue - all new parts

Postby STARTYABASTARD » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:39 am

ned wrote:I’ve had similar with a new starter that was faulty, cold no problem starting, hot just dead, surely the starter should have some warranty, if so take it back and exchange it.


Jesus I hope not, took a week to get this one.
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