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cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

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cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Mon May 29, 2023 1:32 pm

Hello,

I have a ford transit, 2011. 4 cylinder manual, 150k km.
This issue is driving me nuts and no mechanic is really taking it seriously.
So, for some history I believe I got some bad diesel in January or something electrical was damaged by water, as I was in a huge storm in my van at the beach. The day after that storm the car started to hunt at idle, in general was louder but still drove good and has no power loss or smoke.
Back in January when it started I put in a diesel bug killer and that made the hunting go down a lot but it came back and eventually a mechanic listened and changed the scv. BUT after the scv and the fuel filter was changed the car now idles a lot worse, it is a lot louder, vibrated and has a slight shake you can see in the engine. Another weird symptom after the scv change is the car takes like 3 times longer to warm up.
The vibration/idle shake is worse when it is hot.
It also has a glow plug circuit code and a GB module code. But it had those before the scv was changed, so I suspect something fuel related, but maybe it is electrical?
I had the fuel pressure checked at idle was normal
Does not hunt or sputter or loose power.
Today a new mechanic checked the live data on his scanner and the cylinder contribution was all over the place. One was -600 and one was +500 something, the other two were between 200-300.
This was at idle when the engine was at operating temp.
So I am wondering if anyone has any ideas about what this could be. Could it be electrical or fuel related?
What should I get tested
I am wondering if it is the ecu messing up the fuel delivery? Bad wiring or something?

I would love some opinions
Thanks
Bec
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby knobby1 » Mon May 29, 2023 8:05 pm

beclawrence007 wrote:Hello,

I have a ford transit, 2011. 4 cylinder manual, 150k km.
This issue is driving me nuts and no mechanic is really taking it seriously.
So, for some history I believe I got some bad diesel in January or something electrical was damaged by water, as I was in a huge storm in my van at the beach. The day after that storm the car started to hunt at idle, in general was louder but still drove good and has no power loss or smoke.
Back in January when it started I put in a diesel bug killer and that made the hunting go down a lot but it came back and eventually a mechanic listened and changed the scv. BUT after the scv and the fuel filter was changed the car now idles a lot worse, it is a lot louder, vibrated and has a slight shake you can see in the engine. Another weird symptom after the scv change is the car takes like 3 times longer to warm up.
The vibration/idle shake is worse when it is hot.
It also has a glow plug circuit code and a GB module code. But it had those before the scv was changed, so I suspect something fuel related, but maybe it is electrical?
I had the fuel pressure checked at idle was normal
Does not hunt or sputter or loose power.
Today a new mechanic checked the live data on his scanner and the cylinder contribution was all over the place. One was -600 and one was +500 something, the other two were between 200-300.
This was at idle when the engine was at operating temp.
So I am wondering if anyone has any ideas about what this could be. Could it be electrical or fuel related?
What should I get tested
I am wondering if it is the ecu messing up the fuel delivery? Bad wiring or something?

I would love some opinions
Thanks
Bec


When the SCV was replaced, were the pump, pilot & injector learns completed successfully..?? If not it will never run properly. Was the SCV a "genuine Ford or Denso item"..?? If not you'll probably be doing it again soon, non-genuine valves don't seem to play well with the system.

Do you know what the FRP is during cranking and at idle..?? Have the injectors had a "leak-off" test..??

Lord Knobrot
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Tue May 30, 2023 12:24 am

knobby1 wrote:
beclawrence007 wrote:Hello,

I have a ford transit, 2011. 4 cylinder manual, 150k km.
This issue is driving me nuts and no mechanic is really taking it seriously.
So, for some history I believe I got some bad diesel in January or something electrical was damaged by water, as I was in a huge storm in my van at the beach. The day after that storm the car started to hunt at idle, in general was louder but still drove good and has no power loss or smoke.
Back in January when it started I put in a diesel bug killer and that made the hunting go down a lot but it came back and eventually a mechanic listened and changed the scv. BUT after the scv and the fuel filter was changed the car now idles a lot worse, it is a lot louder, vibrated and has a slight shake you can see in the engine. Another weird symptom after the scv change is the car takes like 3 times longer to warm up.
The vibration/idle shake is worse when it is hot.
It also has a glow plug circuit code and a GB module code. But it had those before the scv was changed, so I suspect something fuel related, but maybe it is electrical?
I had the fuel pressure checked at idle was normal
Does not hunt or sputter or loose power.
Today a new mechanic checked the live data on his scanner and the cylinder contribution was all over the place. One was -600 and one was +500 something, the other two were between 200-300.
This was at idle when the engine was at operating temp.
So I am wondering if anyone has any ideas about what this could be. Could it be electrical or fuel related?
What should I get tested
I am wondering if it is the ecu messing up the fuel delivery? Bad wiring or something?

I would love some opinions
Thanks
Bec


When the SCV was replaced, were the pump, pilot & injector learns completed successfully..?? If not it will never run properly. Was the SCV a "genuine Ford or Denso item"..?? If not you'll probably be doing it again soon, non-genuine valves don't seem to play well with the system.

Do you know what the FRP is during cranking and at idle..?? Have the injectors had a "leak-off" test..??

Lord Knobrot



I cannot be sure they did the learns, but I am getting them done now at another mechanic. Also not sure if the scv is genuine but probably not, i think probably aftermarket. But the car does not hunt or sputter anymore and the fuel pressure is normal, so they don't think the scv is the issue. Could it be? with those cylinder contribution numbers?

-600 and +500 is obviously not right, it that normally an injector thing or could it be a cylinder/ring issue? I have checked for blowby, hardly any and do puffing noise. And no oil loss or smoke so doesn't make me think engine but could be?

My question is could it be electrical? like a bad wire somewhere thats throwing off the ecu? but then they say it can't be the ecu because it runs too well.
It is very confusing.

any ideas would help.
thanks
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby Jim Archer » Tue May 30, 2023 6:59 am

Any oil or dampness around the injector seals in the head cover? Does the engine 'breathe' heavily and sound louder if you remove the oil filler cap when running?

Blowing injector seals - the Copper washers that seal the combustion - can do weird things to the idle fueling/injector balance.

Jim
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Tue May 30, 2023 8:56 am

Jim Archer wrote:Any oil or dampness around the injector seals in the head cover? Does the engine 'breathe' heavily and sound louder if you remove the oil filler cap when running?

Blowing injector seals - the Copper washers that seal the combustion - can do weird things to the idle fueling/injector balance.

Jim


i haven't noticed any oil around the injectors. But there has been water getting into the bonnet when it rains alot and pools around the injectors, but i have been told there is no way water will get in through those seals.

I have bene updated though by the mechanic and he did check the injection value and were apparently normal and there is no electrical issue. I am not really convinced though. With the cylinder contribution numbers it has.
He said the clutch is unbalanced, some plate in there i can't remember the exact thing he said but he said that is throwing off a sensor and the ecu is trying to balance it so making the crazy readings. I do not know if that is possible? anyone?

from what I know has happened I still think it is fuel or electrical or there is a compression issue, but the car runs well and has never lost power.
Also the glow plugs are blown, don't know if something electrical caused that or just old. But it all started at the same time after a massive storm so I really think it is related and after the scv change is when this vibration changed.
so it does not make sense to me that the clutch has anything to do with it, it also had that vibration in the clutch back in november and it has not changed, what changed was a really strong vibration the day I picked it up after the fuel filter and scv and oil was done.

I guess I just have to get the injectors bench tested?

they did a relearn too and was successful.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Tue May 30, 2023 8:58 am

Jim Archer wrote:Any oil or dampness around the injector seals in the head cover? Does the engine 'breathe' heavily and sound louder if you remove the oil filler cap when running?

Blowing injector seals - the Copper washers that seal the combustion - can do weird things to the idle fueling/injector balance.

Jim



and nope I don't think it breathes heavily. there is not much blowby, no puffing or hissing noise from filler cap.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby marcrbarker » Tue May 30, 2023 10:47 pm

Cylinder contribution inbalance, hunting on idle, shake vibration, and one point got worse after got it back from mechanic? hmmmmm.. and the engine management trying its best to compensate. something around the clutch with am imbalance . and glowplug I'll guess also there's a shake while driving low revs in top gear. This all sounds like the effects of something and usually that's what we do human nature usually address the effects not necessarily consider the cause. And of course the ECU will be trying to fight the issue and it can be blamed for acting weird. To me sounds like primary cause is a lack of compression on one cylinder.
Day after a heavy rain storm it all started? Puddles of water gathering inside the engine bay? Hope it wasn't water ingress into air intake that would bend a rod and cause a lot of that but would also cause some white smoke I would had thought. I hope it's just a failed injector seal washer and nothing else
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 3:09 am

marcrbarker wrote:Cylinder contribution inbalance, hunting on idle, shake vibration, and one point got worse after got it back from mechanic? hmmmmm.. and the engine management trying its best to compensate. something around the clutch with am imbalance . and glowplug I'll guess also there's a shake while driving low revs in top gear. This all sounds like the effects of something and usually that's what we do human nature usually address the effects not necessarily consider the cause. And of course the ECU will be trying to fight the issue and it can be blamed for acting weird. To me sounds like primary cause is a lack of compression on one cylinder.
Day after a heavy rain storm it all started? Puddles of water gathering inside the engine bay? Hope it wasn't water ingress into air intake that would bend a rod and cause a lot of that but would also cause some white smoke I would had thought. I hope it's just a failed injector seal washer and nothing else



The engine was not vibrating how it is now before the scv was done. It’s not hunting anymore, after scv change.
Just a really annoying vibration, worse when it’s hot. There’s no vibration or shake while driving, as soon as you rev it goes away. No issue driving , no knocking or loss of power and no smoke.

The glow plugs are burnt out through. So does have a little white smoke, very thin and not much and then goes away.

I don’t see how low compression can just happen overnight unless they did something wrong.

If it had low compression I would expect more symptoms ? Maybe it is only a little Low in one but would that cause a idle vibration only at idle and worse when hot ? Or is it the ecu fault trying to compensate for that mmmmm
I guess I should get a compression test and test the injectors too.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 3:14 am

marcrbarker wrote:Cylinder contribution inbalance, hunting on idle, shake vibration, and one point got worse after got it back from mechanic? hmmmmm.. and the engine management trying its best to compensate. something around the clutch with am imbalance . and glowplug I'll guess also there's a shake while driving low revs in top gear. This all sounds like the effects of something and usually that's what we do human nature usually address the effects not necessarily consider the cause. And of course the ECU will be trying to fight the issue and it can be blamed for acting weird. To me sounds like primary cause is a lack of compression on one cylinder.
Day after a heavy rain storm it all started? Puddles of water gathering inside the engine bay? Hope it wasn't water ingress into air intake that would bend a rod and cause a lot of that but would also cause some white smoke I would had thought. I hope it's just a failed injector seal washer and nothing else



Also apparently not misfiring
They really think it is just the clutch in balance affecting the sensor sending wrong info to ecu
But maybe more than one thing I suppose.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby knobby1 » Wed May 31, 2023 3:32 am

beclawrence007 wrote:
marcrbarker wrote:Cylinder contribution inbalance, hunting on idle, shake vibration, and one point got worse after got it back from mechanic? hmmmmm.. and the engine management trying its best to compensate. something around the clutch with am imbalance . and glowplug I'll guess also there's a shake while driving low revs in top gear. This all sounds like the effects of something and usually that's what we do human nature usually address the effects not necessarily consider the cause. And of course the ECU will be trying to fight the issue and it can be blamed for acting weird. To me sounds like primary cause is a lack of compression on one cylinder.
Day after a heavy rain storm it all started? Puddles of water gathering inside the engine bay? Hope it wasn't water ingress into air intake that would bend a rod and cause a lot of that but would also cause some white smoke I would had thought. I hope it's just a failed injector seal washer and nothing else



Also apparently not misfiring
They really think it is just the clutch in balance affecting the sensor sending wrong info to ecu
But maybe more than one thing I suppose.


DMF isn't failing is it..??

Lord Knobrot
2008 2.4L RWD 170+PS 6-speed 350 LWB High Roof.

When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in his car..!
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 3:52 am

knobby1 wrote:
beclawrence007 wrote:
marcrbarker wrote:Cylinder contribution inbalance, hunting on idle, shake vibration, and one point got worse after got it back from mechanic? hmmmmm.. and the engine management trying its best to compensate. something around the clutch with am imbalance . and glowplug I'll guess also there's a shake while driving low revs in top gear. This all sounds like the effects of something and usually that's what we do human nature usually address the effects not necessarily consider the cause. And of course the ECU will be trying to fight the issue and it can be blamed for acting weird. To me sounds like primary cause is a lack of compression on one cylinder.
Day after a heavy rain storm it all started? Puddles of water gathering inside the engine bay? Hope it wasn't water ingress into air intake that would bend a rod and cause a lot of that but would also cause some white smoke I would had thought. I hope it's just a failed injector seal washer and nothing else



Also apparently not misfiring
They really think it is just the clutch in balance affecting the sensor sending wrong info to ecu
But maybe more than one thing I suppose.


DMF isn't failing is it..??

Lord Knobrot




well the DMF has been mentioned and also the clutch pressure plate was mentioned but the clutch is not spongey or slipping. so something is unbalanced is what they said.

But I am not sure how that could also make such a big change overnight after the scv, oil and fuel filter change. Maybe it just made it more apparent I don't know. But yes I have been told the dmf and clutch should be done.

I am just not 100% convinced that is the only issue going on.

would a bad dmf be worse when it is hot? and cause cylinder contribution numbers to be crazy? I don't know.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 am

knobby1 wrote:
beclawrence007 wrote:
marcrbarker wrote:Cylinder contribution inbalance, hunting on idle, shake vibration, and one point got worse after got it back from mechanic? hmmmmm.. and the engine management trying its best to compensate. something around the clutch with am imbalance . and glowplug I'll guess also there's a shake while driving low revs in top gear. This all sounds like the effects of something and usually that's what we do human nature usually address the effects not necessarily consider the cause. And of course the ECU will be trying to fight the issue and it can be blamed for acting weird. To me sounds like primary cause is a lack of compression on one cylinder.
Day after a heavy rain storm it all started? Puddles of water gathering inside the engine bay? Hope it wasn't water ingress into air intake that would bend a rod and cause a lot of that but would also cause some white smoke I would had thought. I hope it's just a failed injector seal washer and nothing else



Also apparently not misfiring
They really think it is just the clutch in balance affecting the sensor sending wrong info to ecu
But maybe more than one thing I suppose.


DMF isn't failing is it..??

Lord Knobrot



Also something caused the glow plugs to burn out. And there was water getting into the bonnet, I do not know if that is relevant but just seems coincidental that after this massive storm all this stuff started.

Apparently no electrical issues though, just glow plugs are blown. I am wondering if there is compression getting out of the plugs? maybe unlikely...
or a bad injector has damaged something

It is all very confusing. alot going on.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby amlav » Wed May 31, 2023 7:52 am

Not sure what do you mean about the glow plugs are blown . The way glow plugs are build : there is a central rod that is inserted in a carbon layer and than the lot is contained in an metal outer sleeving . When power is applied the central rod gets +12 v and the carbon inside being conductive will start heating up . Now if the glow plug is split (blown) inside the cylinder than the carbon residues of the central rod will be falling in to the cylinder and could do a bit of damage . Sometimes the central rod or part of it can also break away due to the constant heating at start up and it sort of burns away in pieces . All this should not be a problem as long the sleeving is still intact .
Also the carbon layer on the central rod burns away in time and the engine vibration will make the central rod to vibrate and touch the sleeve creating a short circuit on the glow plug .
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 8:03 am

amlav wrote:Not sure what do you mean about the glow plugs are blown . The way glow plugs are build : there is a central rod that is inserted in a carbon layer and than the lot is contained in an metal outer sleeving . When power is applied the central rod gets +12 v and the carbon inside being conductive will start heating up . Now if the glow plug is split (blown) inside the cylinder than the carbon residues of the central rod will be falling in to the cylinder and could do a bit of damage . Sometimes the central rod or part of it can also break away due to the constant heating at start up and it sort of burns away in pieces . All this should not be a problem as long the sleeving is still intact .
Also the carbon layer on the central rod burns away in time and the engine vibration will make the central rod to vibrate and touch the sleeve creating a short circuit on the glow plug .


sorry by blown I just mean they are burnt out, not working and need to be replaced. But the car still turns on.
The code For the glow plugs I have is the module code and a circuit code.
no other codes come up.
But these codes came up the same time as the hunting and all that started. So I don't know iF something electrical has short circuited and made them burn out.

Or when it was hunting at idle has caused a electrical spike and short circuited something. I don't know iF that is likely though.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby amlav » Wed May 31, 2023 8:35 am

Try to disconnect the red wire that goes to the glow plugs and see if any diferrence . It will take a bit longer to fire up if outside temperature is under 5 celsius.
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