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cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 8:41 am

amlav wrote:Try to disconnect the red wire that goes to the glow plugs and see if any diferrence . It will take a bit longer to fire up if outside temperature is under 5 celsius.


red wire? mmmm is that part of the gb harness? or the module?

I have been told that glow plugs won't make it vibrate but something short circuiting could cause this weird power contribution going on.

It is not too cold here, I am in sydney so the car still starts up pretty good.

I'll have to get it checked over again more thoroughly I think.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby marcrbarker » Wed May 31, 2023 9:46 am

A quick rough guess compression test can be done by a trained ear (old school mechanic) listening to the engine cranking over and trying to start (after temporarily disabling injectors to prevent firing) . The trained ear listens to the rhythmic sound over 2 or 3 complete revolutions. If it sounds like a shuffle reggae beat then there's a low comp cylinder.
Replacing a DMF with a solid one would reduce the effect. When the engine is hot it's a lot looser and needs much less fuel for it to idle.
Puddle of water gathering on head after heavy rain, is that bathing the glowplug electrical connections?
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 11:30 am

marcrbarker wrote:A quick rough guess compression test can be done by a trained ear (old school mechanic) listening to the engine cranking over and trying to start (after temporarily disabling injectors to prevent firing) . The trained ear listens to the rhythmic sound over 2 or 3 complete revolutions. If it sounds like a shuffle reggae beat then there's a low comp cylinder.
Replacing a DMF with a solid one would reduce the effect. When the engine is hot it's a lot looser and needs much less fuel for it to idle.
Puddle of water gathering on head after heavy rain, is that bathing the glowplug electrical connections?


yeah there have been so many mechanics drive it and listen to it, they all say it sounds really good, but no one has done a compression test or listen to it crank like that, it is going back to mechanic in a couple weeks so I will get them to make sure it's not compression before doing more work. But the car does run really well, the glow plugs make it start a tiny bit slower but not much.
and its just hard to believe that it can happen overnight. Unless the mechanic messed up something and caused the low comp. But that is going to impossible to prove.

The only other thing I can think of is the oil change they did at the same time as the scv, after that is when it got worse. They changed the oil from 15w40 to 5w30 (which is what is recommended) but maybe the new and thinner oil made one drop?

The water was dripping down right above cylinder one and pooling around the injector, on the head. i do not know if it dripped down into a glow plug/wiring but maybe possible.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby metalworker0 » Wed May 31, 2023 12:02 pm

There is clever software now , that looks at electrical power spikes when the engine is cranking ..and you can see the power consumption spikes on a graph for each cylinder as it compresses, from that you can deduce if a cylinder is down without even screwing a compression tester into it.

all the best..mark
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby marcrbarker » Wed May 31, 2023 12:23 pm

metalworker0 wrote:There is clever software now , that looks at electrical power spikes when the engine is cranking ..mark

Sounds like the signal from the crank sensor. Repeating string series of regular +/- spikes (with one of them missing to indicate TDC). The software I guess compares the pulse train against a graduated scale to detect speed up and slow downs. And so detect a cylinder skipping the beat. Don't know about AI replacing an old school mechanic ear the way AI transcribes subtitles.
Just a thought maybe the previous owner had used thicker oil to fix a problem. .
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 12:42 pm

marcrbarker wrote:
metalworker0 wrote:There is clever software now , that looks at electrical power spikes when the engine is cranking ..mark

Sounds like the signal from the crank sensor. Repeating string series of regular +/- spikes (with one of them missing to indicate TDC). The software I guess compares the pulse train against a graduated scale to detect speed up and slow downs. And so detect a cylinder skipping the beat. Don't know about AI replacing an old school mechanic ear the way AI transcribes subtitles.
Just a thought maybe the previous owner had used thicker oil to fix a problem. .



not really sure what you mean.
Do you mean "skipping a beat" as in one cylinder has low compression making it skip? or something electrical making the sensor send wrong info to the ecu?

The last mechanic said that the clutch plate or something was affecting the crank sensor maybe causing the contribution numbers to be weird.
apparently is it not misfiring though...

Yeah maybe I should change the oil back to a thicker one and see if it helps. But it has has 5w30 in it before I am pretty sure. I've had it for 3 years.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby metalworker0 » Wed May 31, 2023 1:08 pm

As far as i know , the software is measuring current draw from the starter as it cranks...so it can see during a few revolutions a complete picture of it ...the graph is compressed .....you just see a pile of spikes ..until you alter the resolution , drag it across ..so you then see the complete detail of the current draw...you'll have perhaps 8 spikes across the screen ...that have now become arches for a 4 cylinder..2 lower arches means lower compression on the cylinder...at least that's how i seen it / made of it.

all the best.mark
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby metalworker0 » Wed May 31, 2023 1:11 pm

Yes DMF clutch when its getting worn out and shot, often deposits magnetically charged swarf /fileings on the crank sensor
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Wed May 31, 2023 1:17 pm

metalworker0 wrote:Yes DMF clutch when its getting worn out and shot, often deposits magnetically charged swarf /fileings on the crank sensor


okay so maybe he is right then, about the clutch causing the issue

Hoping it is not compression!

thankyou
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby marcrbarker » Wed May 31, 2023 4:17 pm

beclawrence007 wrote:not really sure what you mean.
Do you mean "skipping a beat" as in one cylinder has low compression making it skip? or something electrical making the sensor send wrong info to the ecu?

What I mean is simply the sound that's heard while the starter motor is turning the engine around and around. Anything electrical like ECU injectors glowplugs sensors etc. aren't involved because the engine must be prevented from starting (i.e. take the ignition key out & hotwire the start solenoid, or roll the van while in gear facing down steep slope to turn engine around) . Allowing start would spoil the test. A normal engine sounds "whirr-whirr-whirr-whirr-whirr...." and abnormal is "whirr-whirr-whirr~w-whirr-whirr-w-whirr,,," to the educated ear. What Metalworker is describing (I think) is more less the same but instead of skilful listening to a sound has a electronic graph of the startermotor power consumption while cranking (which relates to effort) and software to analyse decide.

beclawrence007 wrote:But it has has 5w30 in it before I am pretty sure. I've had it for 3 years.

As that was well before the heavy rainfall so maybe can rule out the oil.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby ballihoo » Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:29 am

I know this may not be very helpful, but the storm. Really may have nothing to do with it. Strange coincidences seem to happen more often than you think. For me anyway. They then lead you down strange paths. Only for it to be something completely different, or unrelated.
I’ve also been looking at cylinder balance/ratio on my own van. Apparently the reading are taken from a central point and pick up the ‘noise’ from each cylinder. So the reading are not per cylinder, if that makes sense? And the sensor is central so the noise is greater on the cylinders it is close to.
I read this on the forscan forum.
Did you get pump/injector learns done?
Try some better quality diesel with a can of system cleaner through and see if this effects it at all?
Mk7 2.2 t350 tipper 2014
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:29 am

ballihoo wrote:I know this may not be very helpful, but the storm. Really may have nothing to do with it. Strange coincidences seem to happen more often than you think. For me anyway. They then lead you down strange paths. Only for it to be something completely different, or unrelated.
I’ve also been looking at cylinder balance/ratio on my own van. Apparently the reading are taken from a central point and pick up the ‘noise’ from each cylinder. So the reading are not per cylinder, if that makes sense? And the sensor is central so the noise is greater on the cylinders it is close to.
I read this on the forscan forum.
Did you get pump/injector learns done?
Try some better quality diesel with a can of system cleaner through and see if this effects it at all?



Yeah, you are right it may not be related at all. Just seems coincidental.
I know there was water getting in the bonnet so maybe water ingress near the ecu, another transit owner had this happen and had the same cylinder contribution numbers. So I am hoping it is that.

Yes the injector and pump learns have been done a couple times now and don't help.

I think it is either electrical or it is related to the clutch and flywheel being unbalanced and affecting the sensors that read the position of the pistons etc.

and also the harmonic balancer is soft so maybe that is also part of it.

It just seems weird to me that it got worse overnight after the scv was done, i have no idea how that could change so much in one day unless the mechanics messed with it. which i will never know.

So next step is just to do the clutch and flywheel and see what happens then!
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby marcrbarker » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:20 am

Doing that rough 'compression' test that listens to the sound of engine cranking is free and only takes a few minutes. Instant result. You could post the sound on youtube I'll listen to it. Gearbox in neutral handbrake on ignition key removed, recording on phone, dab a 12V wire to the starter solenoid terminal to spin the engine for a few seconds.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:33 am

marcrbarker wrote:Doing that rough 'compression' test that listens to the sound of engine cranking is free and only takes a few minutes. Instant result. You could post the sound on youtube I'll listen to it. Gearbox in neutral handbrake on ignition key removed, recording on phone, dab a 12V wire to the starter solenoid terminal to spin the engine for a few seconds.


I dont think I can do that, I dont want to mess something up.
I will make sure the next mechanic does it though and maybe a proper compression test, but I don't think it is the compression.
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Re: cylinder contribution - help. injectors??

Postby beclawrence007 » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:54 am

marcrbarker wrote:Doing that rough 'compression' test that listens to the sound of engine cranking is free and only takes a few minutes. Instant result. You could post the sound on youtube I'll listen to it. Gearbox in neutral handbrake on ignition key removed, recording on phone, dab a 12V wire to the starter solenoid terminal to spin the engine for a few seconds.


can i do it just be removing the pump fuse instead?
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