P1664 P1564 2.0TDDi Duratorq 100, underpowered

[Tdyfa]

Hi,

For almost a year, I have been struggling with my injection problem on my Ford Transit 2.0 TDDi Duratorq 100hp...

Initially, the engine went down and never restarted, a first repair of the driver (transistor replacement) worked, for 3h, then engine went down again, not starting...

Considering the price of the pumps, even used, I preferred to change the whole engine I bought from a professional with warranty, announced at 130.000km, mine had almost passed the 300kkm --> success! or almost..
Indeed, with the new engine installed (and therefore the pump of the new engine), the van starts at a quarter of a turn, idle stable, it doesn't slam and doesn't smoke, but it has no power... foot to the floor I barely reach the 70km/h.
Diag tool (AUTEL, ForScan...) shows DTCs p1664 and p1564, pointing to FIP
I know there are a multitude of topics and forums where these DTCs have already been discussed, but in most of cases, the engine doesn't start

I’ve tried a lot of things and spent hundred of hours on it:
- send the pump module for repair by a professional -> KO, it hasn't changed anything...
- retrieved the timing solenoid from the old pump -> KO
- made my own harness from the pump to the fuse box -> KO
- Learnt the pump with IDS, Forscan or AUTEL -> KO, I could never reach the end of the process
- connected the old pump driver -> KO, doesn't start and has the same p1664 and p1564 DTCs
- checked all grounds
- others I certainly forget, without success

I've no more ideas, got mechanic's basics, and diag tools (AUTEL, ForScan).

I also noticed with ForScan that the values F_INJ_A, F_INJ_B, F_INJ_C and F_INJ_D (in mg) do not move/remain at zero (I have no idea what they mean...).

If some of you have already been faced to this issue, or would have ways to help me bringing back this family van on the road, I’m ready!

[marcrbarker]

The trouble with scanner DTC codes is they're interpeted far too literally, and the misinformation is published all over the Net as clickbait to generate revenue, "google search DTC pages with SEO" that's mostly everyone copying everyone else and not understanding it. I've seen first hand a case of round and round loop with an IP blamed on a VW with an intermittent poor running and stored DTC that when interpreted literally blames the injection pump each time.
Had 3 replacement pumps and still intermittent registered the same stored DTC. Then one day the DTC became permanent , the mobile tech naturally said "faulty IP" , we reply "no it isnt we've just replaced it", "I'm telling you it's IP", "no it ain't we've tried one of the old ones too", "look I'll prove it to you all your IPs are bad" . He came back in his van with a known good IP, "Look I'll prove it to you", bolted it on himself, "watch this.." ---- "OH it isn't"... Then as usual they make an excuse and leave. The underlying problem was actually a dry solder joint in the ECU but threw a DTC that blames the IP.

What's the 'transistor' that was changed? What does that do (apart from fail). I can see it can be branded a culprit but it could be a victim. Did it fail by chance because some other component it drives is out of spec? Maybe it drives a valve that is being overdriven as a result of a flow restriction? It might had failed again, especially as the majority of techs working on the bench always replace a failed component with the exact same code and not a stronger component, or the part they use is counterfeit. (Myself I use stronger parts and then see where else gets overstressed.)

[tranmx2]

https://www.engine-codes.com/p1664_ford.html
P 1664 and P 1564
Faulty Injection Pump Control Module
Injection Pump Control Module harness is open or shorted
Injection Pump Control Module circuit poor electrical connection
Check the connector pins.

https://www.cardiag.me/en/obd2-en/p1564-ford-2/

P1564 FORD Injection Pump Control Module Request More Fuel

The reason for and solution can vary - internet info' - .

What do you mean by whole engine?
A recon eng may not include all that makes up an engine.
If you used the electronic units that were used on the previous engine and the fault remains then the fault is very likely within the electronic units and associated parts.

The HP pump is controlled by an electronic unit - changing the pump may not solve a problem. Changes within the pump made by the electronic unit are related to the inputs to the unit from associated sensors.

marcrbarker
The underlying problem was actually a dry solder joint in the ECU .

[marcrbarker]

What do you mean by whole engine?

I hadn't mentioned anything about whole engine.

https://www.engine-codes.com/p1664_ford.html
P 1664 and P 1564
Faulty Injection Pump Control Module
Injection Pump Control Module harness is.....

What you quote here is moreorless falling into the exact same trap of everyone else falls into, as the example I posted about the VW IP and the guy with tons of experience who said "look I'll prove to you I'm right" but was wrong. Information from an authorative source (copied ad-infinitum in the SOE-driven Public Domain) is not always useful.

changing the pump may not solve a problem. Changes within the pump made by the electronic unit are related to the inputs to the unit from associated sensors.

This does not do exactly what is on the list, it's a 'quote' that goes around that's like a vague 'disclaimer'. I would have said at least it's going in the right direction but it's wasted because very few people actually understand what "...related to the inputs from associated sensors" means.

The point I'm making is info like "https://www.engine-codes.com/p1664_ford.html" is taken too literally, it's interpreted to letter blindly as if "fault MUST be one of the things on the list, if you don't find which one it is then the problem is YOU, repeat the list again until you find which one it is. Result is a series of unneccesary interventions by varying number of people causing an unknown amount of damage and extra complication chasing a red herring that never existed in the first place.

This is why I am asking the OP memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=170438 about the failed transistor in the ECU that was replaced. It's treated as a 'culprit' when it's more probably a 'victim' and exploring the underlying reason why the transistor failed. Otherwise we're all going round and round the replace-again-the-failed-spare-part loop forever.

[tranmx2]

The reply was referring to the OP.


This is to the 2nd poster.
What else is there to refer to other than the internet?

Transistor - do PCBs have transistors or is that a thing attached?
ECU seems to be a pre 2006 designation. PCM seems to have taken over the roll of the term ECU.

[knobby1]

PCM seems to have taken over the roll of the term ECU.

That's because Ford call it a "Powertrain Control Module", hence the PCM. Mk6 also have a PCM.

Lord Knobrot

[marcrbarker]

The reply was referring to the OP.

ah that makes sense now.

This the point I'm trying to make. The Internet is 99.99+% everyone copying everyone else and regurgitating the same information, blindly cloning errors and omissions of the source as it's copied and pasted. But every so often, part of the other 0.01% tries to communicate something original, say on a forum but they get bombarded with the same thing they've heard before a zillion times while researching. Similar thing happens when a medical doctor posts to specialist Usenet group asking about 'off-label' drug usage in cancer treatment, unfortunately he/she nowdays just gets an immediate response back someone copy-pasting googled pharmaceutical company's patient instruction leaflet - which is of course useless information.

The VW case I cited was a working example with simiarities to the OP's story, except in this case the original fault was bottomed out to component level. The intermittent dry joint in the ECU was likely caused by a previous history accident impact and/or a fire. Another ECU had never been tried out over the years because the ECU passed checks every time and the fault was always diagnosed "injection pump or harness or pin connections etc."

The OP's PCM / ECU I understand had a MOSFET fail common problem. That's the focus of what I'm interested in (academic)

I hope the OP will come back.

Transistor attached outside the PCM/ECU? Is that what you mean? Now that seems a good idea to me, have a thermally-stressed transistor instead of it sweating inside the module on the PCB, have instead a stronger one bolted down in a small diecast box outside

[Tdyfa]

Sorry I've been busy at the office.. Thanks for your replies

@marcrbarker, indeed on the internet there are thousands of posts related to these DTC, which do not always highlight the origin of the problem but only the impact (burnt transistor)

I spent hours researching, and from several sources it seems that the transistor would burn for several possible reasons:
- The piston inside the pump jams, forces much more, and therefore consumes too much current and overheats
- Solenoid wires strip and touch each other (very common)

I do not know exactly the role of the transistor inside the pump module, but I know that in most cases it is replaced by a transistor at least equivalent (IRLR2905) or stronger.

On my original engine, the repair (changing the transistor only... without searching for the cause) was done by a random guy, found on an online ad site, and lasted only a few hours before it died.

On the second engine, which starts and runs very well, I have the same DTCs (p1664 and p1564), but no power... All the mechanics near by, including Ford, suggest me a replacement of the pump + module for about 2000€...
All the others (mainly internet sources) point to the pump module, which I therefore sent in repair to a specialized professional for 220€, who confirmed me that the transistor had a problem, but once received and mounted, I still had the same problems.


@tranmx2, I already checked the harness from the pump to the fuse box, I even made my own harness connecting only the pump to the fuse box and unplugging all the other connectors that might interfere (alternator, sensors, spark plugs....)
And by "whole engine", I meant the complete engine (engine block, cylinder head, turbo, pump etc....), I did not reuse anything from the old engine.

Enclosed, the "repair" of the transistor (top right corner) made by the best known professional in France

[marcrbarker]

@ Tdyfa

I looked at the IR datasheet for the MOSFET transistor. Is this the original transistor spec or uprated replacement?. On paper it's high performance. (techy: rds(on) 40mOhm max, Vgs th 2V max, gfs 21 minimum) It's capable of lots of amps and power dissipation on paper but almost all that high performance is wasted because it's packaged in a D-pak surface mount.
penny pinching mass manufacture .vehicle costing 1000s a design that only just does the job, with no out of normal operating parameters survival margin. Almost a fuse.
I see the France professional repair put the transistor down against the module base (or is mounted on non-heat-conducting plastic? ). Nice soldering. If to module metal plate it must have been bonded down with heat conductive cement for it to survive, if not it'll just fail again within a few minutes. A TO-220 package & mount washer or similar bolt-down transistor would have much better survivabilty.

I can tell transistor function is a low side PWM drive. The low side of a solenoid or something connected here. Would you by chance have a wiring schematic this part the vehicle?

An oscilloscope connected to the line this transistor feeds to would be essential. Not only confirm the transistor is actually doing its job but the shape and height of the electrical pulses speaks volumes of what's going on plus see what kind of stress the transistor is getting.
Would be better still also look at the transistor's gate drive too, but that would be a test wire sticking out of the module to clip the other channel of 'scope to.

[tranmx2]

From some reading on this page https://oscarliang.com/how-to-use-mosfe ... -tutorial/ there needs to be V to the gate. With V on the gate the V/amps can flow from the source to the drain ( I suppose the drain is the electrical unit that is fed from the MOSFET) seems that for the MOSFET to fail from a heat source - it is by location prevented from cooling - that a lot of current flows through it which could mean that there is a short to earth after the MOSFET.
Could be as well to know which electrical/electronic units come after the MOSFET. Which unit is switched on by the MOSFET? Which wires/connectors are used?

Mosfet.png

[marcrbarker]

The MOSFET is likely driving a "square wave" to a solenoid. To linear-ly alter the pull of a solenoid. Instead of a varying DC analogue current to do that it's a variable % duty cycle square wave ("PWM").

I've had decades experience with MOSFETS, they are quite amazing what they can do these days, yet they have still some weird idiosyncrasies too. A mosfet like the one above is capable of switch on/off current to a headlamp light bulb, just by the static electricity charge from your finger touching its "gate" pin (when pin floating and not connected).
In practice what happens is in a situation like that it burns out easily.
It's because the gate has to be driven hard so the mosfet doesn't heat up and melt. It's like 'grasping a stinging nettle', if you pinch a nettle hard between fingers it won't sting you. It needs enough gate voltage to fully open the channel between drain & source, or it'll heat up and melt (current × rds-on).
.
When there's 1000s switch cycles a second that gate voltage can't rise/fall slowly or the mosfet works too long in linear mode and it'll heat up and melt. Because the gate is effectively a capacitor means whatever circuit drives the gate needs provide a decent strong current, to minimise this time spent linear mode. Often the drive comes from another pair of mosfets.

Another thing about mosfets is while you're trying to drive the gate 1000s times second, the changing voltage on drain terminal is fighting to un-drive the gate, let it do that and mosfet gets hot and melts. (that's the pesky Miller feedback).
Another thing (which is not just for mosfets) is it will generate a bit of heat while nominal conditions and another increased amount of heat during certain fault conditions. The physical package the mosfet chip is built and how it is integrated into the module influences a huge amount how much heat the mosfet can handle. (product thermal design). The chip temperature inside could be 150 degC while the PCB it's attached to is is 40 degC.
That's a very misunderstood part of the mosfet datasheet, that "100W" power is only theoretical and the makers test that bonding it to a metal block water cooled, real world PCB mount is only a couple % that 100W after thermal derating applied.

That's the main things that kill a mosfet.

[tranmx2]

PCM seems to have taken over the roll of the term ECU.

That's because Ford call it a "Powertrain Control Module", hence the PCM. Mk6 also have a PCM.

Lord Knobrot

Thank you Knobby for clarifying that.

marcrbarker
It needs enough gate voltage to fully open the channel between drain & source, or it'll heat up and melt (current × rds-on).
It needs enough gate voltage to fully close the switch to have full continuity between drain & source, or it'll heat up and melt (current × rds-on). ( me on another planet looking at the same stars)
Found this https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon- ... 95b6142b78 - re' rds.

So it seems that when the gate is not fully closed - there is resistance - like a 10 strand wire having 9 broken strands?

MOSFET diag.png

Likely it is not a mechanical switch but made from materials that are conductive, can be activated/made conductive so a material switch can have symptoms similar to a mechanical switch - arching - dirt on contacts - weakness in the metal parts, low V supply, resistance at the switch contacts etc.

[marcrbarker]

These mosfet things are magic. They use high purity silicon crystal lattice that changes from insulator into metal and back to insulator. Controlled by changes of just a couple of volts worth of static electricity, applied to the gate pin (insulated oxide layer on the crystal) The LCD display segment on a watch goes dark by electrostatic field on its liquid crystal, and a mosfet, its channel changes from insulator to conductor. But just like the segment on a LCD is not fully transparent/ fully opaque, the mosfet isn't a perfect switch either. What influences the most the 'rds-on' factor is the size of the chip inside. It might only be 0.2 mm square inside, a 2 mm size one could only cost a few pennies more, but of course a bigger chip is also a potential bigger nettle to grasp.
It can change from a 10 strand wire into a 1/10th of a strand of wire if something goes wrong with a neighbouring component.

[marcrbarker]

Back to the OP, some required operating condition isn't being met for some reason, the module/PCM/ECU isn't happy with it so turns on the MIL light, puts an artificial reduced power 'limp mode' and sets the DTC code pair. DTCs of course don't say which component's faulty at all but just reports which particular operation condition didn't get met.

So I have a theory something's going wrong to do with the mosfet transistor and what it's doing. Something somewhere that's getting missed. The only way to prove a theory is to science it with experiments. But given how expensive and fragile late model vehicle electronics is experiments with low risk of breaking things. I'm happy to propose tests if want to try them.

Unless we're talking about a consumer product with planned obsolescence that's meant to become unrepairable after a failure, (transistor fails after a shorted a solenoid, overloaded valve, shorting wires etc.), what I'm saying is if already spending out on a repair then the transistor doesn't have be standard as-designed, (fails any time it operates outside of nominal conditions). It can be a stronger one that can't burn out with a circuit around it that limits current to a safe level and prevent fault propagation when there's an overload or short circuit.

Of course making things more reliable and preventing fault propagation would make a big dent in the revenue of the repair service sector. Why they're often so keen on keeping things original, not rocking the boat and warning against modifications that might invalidate insurance because not OEM .