EGR again and again on en 2.4 TDCI

[Burn2]

Hello, i am totally lost with this truck.

Sorry for the long novel, but i don t see how to summarize that more.

Context:
2.4 tdci 140 2008
Camper so big load (near 3.5T)
now 200 000km

The problem begin i would say near 6/7 year ago or something like that. (truck was near 140 000km i would say)
One day the check engine turn on.
At this time i do not have anything to check the log as i never had any problem with it.
We go to the ford dealer who do the car maintenance on it.
After a check, it says it's the EGR valve who die, so they replace it for a brand new OEM FORD.



1 year after, check engine turn on again.
I buy the necessary to check log ==> P0299/0234. (+ MAP and MAF related value)
I clear the DTC, could drive 2000km, then it come back again. So more then 2000km with no code, and it comes again.
I replace the map and maf sensor to be sure that all is ok here and because i got bad cold temp on IAT2 (that solve this point) + incorrect DMD and read value)
But it change nothing, the code comes back near 2000km later.
More and more the check engine light (P0299) comes early, every 1000, then 500, then 200 then all the drive.
Between the error, everything seems to be ok, the transit got normal performance, everything is ok.
When check engine come, just before i could notice some "lag" like it took time to charge, but it's the same when check engine comes on, and that comes nearly after...

I change the mechanic because i was not satisfied of Ford (for a lot of reason on other cars too) and go for a local mechanic.
It tooks time and check, and says that EGR has died again. He choose a metalic EGR PIERBURG (brand new) and change it.
It works like a charm 2000 or 4000 km, then again P0299 come back. (i don t remember if they were P0234 this time)
We try an hydrogen cleaner even if for me it brings nothing (but well let's try...) and it change nothing. P0299 come backs 2000km later.
Like before, between the error code, the transit drive normally.
The things that always warn me that that something is wrong with EGR is that the map and map_dmd value are never in range (map_dmd are totally wrong) same for maf and maf_dmd.
Like i have already reported there:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=217842

At this point we send the injector to control, they were all out of range.
We replace them, code them, and do the pump and injector learn procedure.
Everything was right, the transit was more reactive at low rpm and got more power at more then 3000rpm so seems to be good!
But the map and maf value are like before always totally wrong. But well no error code so...
Map readiing value is "normal" at more then 1.34 boost value if i remember well so turbo seems to boost normally.

I drive 3000 km, no more error code, was thinking that everything was solved...
Then i went for a refuel, start the engine again, accelerate (not full throttle but near 80%) and immediately notice some "hesitation" like if EGR were closing/opening and make some "wave" on the acceleration (difficult to describe)
Then the limited performance come back again, with check engine on...
I check the error code, and got all the one related to EGR... P0299/P0234 + MAF and map related error code + error that are directly related to the EGR (solenoïd position or other error code, i could give you the list but no doupt there).
If i remove the error code, 2 stay (solenoid position and one other for EGR), and after a period, all comes back and check engine line come back.



Some more information:
I never drive at low rev, i drive at more then 2000RPM, climb hill at more then 2500 rpm (long hill at more then 3000), as it's a camper, it's never used in town and it always make long travell so normally not something that could clogued an EGR.
The majority of our travel are driving at 110km/h on highway so at more then 2700rpm in six. Even at 80km/h we are at more then 2000RPM in six.
I regularly make full throttle acceleration at more then 3000 RPM (until 4000) to clean the engine.
And even with that, that could not explain why everything was ok with me driving for more then 140 000km, and now with the same driver kill 3 EGR in 50 000km.
They is no smoke on idle, or acceleration. Idle is stable.
We use diesel station not supermarket station. The only case where we do not know what it is when we travel in outside our country, we do not know if it's supermarket or diesel station.

What are new:
VCV+PRV (because of poor idle, and it solve the problem)
4 new injector (because out of nominal range after test it)
MAF and MAP sensor
and of course EGR twice...
Fuel filter + air filter are new of course and has been changed a lot of time since the problem appear


So it seems that knobby was right, i still have problem with the EGR, but could not explain why .
Do you have an idea of what could bring such result????

At this moment, we are look to find a mechanic far away from home, to check the EGR... Yep nice holliday....

Thank's.

[metalworker0]

i suggest you plug in forscan .. and do some readings in real time "live data"

Should show EGR as closed during medium and hard acceleration , if not then its the EGR again

if EGR is doing the correct thing as above then ---.


Well the codes are for underboost and overboost

My research to me, says it has variable vane turbo with electronic actuator so it's then time to look at the actuator for the variable vane turbo as the item that is causing trouble.

i got this from google AI .. i agree with this, so .. pointless me composing my own stuff , what it does not mention is overboost and underboost .. but it would do that, if something below is failing particularly the electronic actuator.

With the question - "what goes wrong with variable vane turbo"


AI Overview
Variable vane turbochargers, also known as VGT or VNT turbos, can experience several issues. Common problems include the vanes sticking due to carbon buildup, electrical component failures, and mechanical wear. These issues can lead to a range of symptoms such as reduced engine power, excessive oil consumption, and even engine damage if not addressed.

Common Problems:
Sticking or Seized Vanes:
The vanes in a VGT/VNT turbo are susceptible to carbon and soot buildup, especially in vehicles used for short journeys where the engine doesn't reach full operating temperature. This buildup can cause the vanes to stick or seize, preventing them from adjusting properly, which can lead to overboost or lack of boost, resulting in power loss or engine damage.

Electronic Actuator Failure:
The electronic actuator that controls the vanes can overheat, leading to failure. This can manifest as burnt wires, melted connectors, or a complete failure of the actuator. note: me contained within - plastic gears that can strip or slip on shafts

Mechanical Wear:
The moving parts within the VGT mechanism, including the control ring and the veins themselves, can wear down over time, leading to sluggish turbo response or even limp mode (a failsafe mode to prevent engine damage).

Bearing Failures:
Similar to other turbochargers, VGTs can experience bearing failures due to various factors like hot shutdowns, oil contamination, or excessive pressure from a blocked crankcase filter.


Exhaust Leaks:
Leaks can occur where the actuator shaft enters the housing, potentially causing further issues with the turbo's operation.

Contamination:
Coolant or debris entering the turbocharger can damage the veins or the shroud plate, hindering their movement.

Symptoms of VGT Turbo Problems:
Reduced Engine Power:
A common symptom of VGT issues is a noticeable decrease in engine power, especially at lower RPMs.

Erratic Engine Performance:
Fluctuations in engine RPM, especially during acceleration, can indicate a problem with the VGT.

Increased Oil Consumption:
Excessive oil consumption can be a sign of bearing failure or other issues within the turbo.( note me the oil can contaminate the maf sensor and cause erratic readings and possibly cause runaway engine)

Increased Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT):
Faulty VGT operation can lead to higher EGTs, potentially causing further damage.

Increased Fuel Consumption:
Problems with the VGT can affect the engine's efficiency, leading to increased fuel consumption.

Black Smoke from the Exhaust:
Excessive black smoke can be a sign of incomplete combustion due to improper air-fuel mixture caused by a faulty VGT.

Prevention:
Regular Maintenance:
Follow the manufacturer's recommended maintenance schedule, including regular oil changes and filter replacements.

Avoid Hot Shutdowns:
Allow the engine to idle for a short period before shutting it off, especially after a hard run, to allow the turbocharger to cool down.

Prevent Carbon Buildup:
Use high-quality fuel and consider using a catch can to prevent carbon buildup in the intake system.
Address Engine Problems Promptly:
Address any engine issues, such as EGR valve or cooler problems, as they can contribute to VGT problems.

Proper Installation:
Ensure the VGT is installed correctly, and consider having it installed by a qualified technician.

This does not mean go out and buy a new turbo or actuator .. it means check these are not at fault


all the best.mark

[Burn2]

Hello.
As i got egr solenoid error and postion error on egr that immediatly come back ( even without starting the engine ), no doupt that it's the case and related to egr there.
I will post all the error code i got but it's map + maf error + egr error.

Vgt was something we were looking too, but they should be no reason that error code solve when we change the egr valve.
And when i tried to make the error "on demand" by full accelerate, then stop then full etc, i never succed to make it on demand.

It always come from time to time ( not at full throttle ) then more often then egr die.
No smoke, no oil consomation or coolant.
The only information i have is that maf live and dmd are always not the same ( and maf dmd are wrong ) and same for map value, even when egr is close or open ( pct 100% or 0).

[metalworker0]

You gave two codes up there -- overboost and underboost .. you did not give an EGR code (well up to whilst i was typing this )

My answers were based on that .

Depends what you are reading it with, the software may blame the EGR
unless you are seeing codes saying EGR position wrong etc .. that you never talked about.

in order to solve your problem we need all facts and codes.

in order to understand the problem, and get to the answers, get to the bottom of it, you must purchase forscan, drive it with forscan running yourself - see real time data , or you are at the mercy of a garage who only want your money and will keep on fleecing you .

Garages do not want to clean EGR's, they see replacing them as the only solution... as its may take over 1 hour to clean it .. at £100 and hour labour charge .. may work out the same as replacing with new .

Cleaning an EGR should be like disassembling and cleaning a gun, a task taught to even the not so clever soldiers.. who could do it blindfolded. so get someone to show you once and you'll be happy doing it every few thousand miles, hands on and happy, not paying garage ££££

Also could be a problem with engine wear at high mileage (although 124,000 isn't that high, if its been looked after) or breather system partially blocked causing it to get dirty more often,
See the post in the last few hours here called " Broke down on the motorway this morning!" see the last picture in the thread .. a large blue thing in the engine bay ... this is a "catch can" ... an aftermarket device that catches the vapours and oil crap before they hit the EGR, so will / may save a lot of grief .

the little blue air filter is also part of the catch can kit.

download/file.php?id=55035&mode=view

oh .. and have a look at this

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0IDR6n3pUKk

all the best.mark

[andz327]

.....

Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

[andz327]

You gave two codes up there -- overboost and underboost .. you did not give an EGR code (well up to whilst i was typing this )

My answers were based on that .

Depends what you are reading it with, the software may blame the EGR
unless you are seeing codes saying EGR position wrong etc .. that you never talked about.

in order to solve your problem we need all facts and codes.

in order to understand the problem, and get to the answers, get to the bottom of it, you must purchase forscan, drive it with forscan running yourself - see real time data , or you are at the mercy of a garage who only want your money and will keep on fleecing you .

Garages do not want to clean EGR's, they see replacing them as the only solution... as its may take over 1 hour to clean it .. at £100 and hour labour charge .. may work out the same as replacing with new .

Cleaning an EGR should be like disassembling and cleaning a gun, a task taught to even the not so clever soldiers.. who could do it blindfolded. so get someone to show you once and you'll be happy doing it every few thousand miles, hands on and happy, not paying garage ££££

Also could be a problem with engine wear at high mileage (although 124,000 isn't that high, if its been looked after) or breather system partially blocked causing it to get dirty more often,
See the post in the last few hours here called " Broke down on the motorway this morning!" see the last picture in the thread .. a large blue thing in the engine bay ... this is a "catch can" ... an aftermarket device that catches the vapours and oil crap before they hit the EGR, so will / may save a lot of grief .

the little blue air filter is also part of the catch can kit.

download/file.php?id=55035&mode=view

oh .. and have a look at this

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0IDR6n3pUKk

all the best.mark

Have you actually disassembled a mk7 egr ??? It's nothing like a gun and you can't actually disassemble it like you would a gun, you can only remove it and clean what you can see ffs
Garages aren't fleecing you whenever they say change..... its about guaranteeing the repair which they can't with doing a clean of the egr as cleaning might not solve the issue

Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

[Burn2]

Here is the list:
P1402:16-AF/2F Egr valve position sensor
P1409:77-AF/2F EGR vacumm regulator solenoid
P0234:00:6C turbo pressure too hight ( from map sensor )
1103:00-6C/6F Mass Air flow sensor
P0299:00-6C/68 Turbo boost too low ( from map sensor )
And one time:
P0404-73 Egr not in range


On odb code:
P1103-P mass air flow
P1402-P EGR position sensor
P1409-C EGR Vacumm Regulator solenoid


The 2 error code related to Egr are always there directly after i clear the dtc code.
With that it seems that there is no doubt about an egr pb.

As said in the previous post andz327 clean an mk7 egr that is electric often does not work.
And on the rwd 2.4 tdci it's complicated to unplugged it to check.

[metalworker0]

You gave two codes up there -- overboost and underboost .. you did not give an EGR code (well up to whilst i was typing this )

My answers were based on that .

Depends what you are reading it with, the software may blame the EGR
unless you are seeing codes saying EGR position wrong etc .. that you never talked about.

in order to solve your problem we need all facts and codes.

in order to understand the problem, and get to the answers, get to the bottom of it, you must purchase forscan, drive it with forscan running yourself - see real time data , or you are at the mercy of a garage who only want your money and will keep on fleecing you .

Garages do not want to clean EGR's, they see replacing them as the only solution... as its may take over 1 hour to clean it .. at £100 and hour labour charge .. may work out the same as replacing with new .

Cleaning an EGR should be like disassembling and cleaning a gun, a task taught to even the not so clever soldiers.. who could do it blindfolded. so get someone to show you once and you'll be happy doing it every few thousand miles, hands on and happy, not paying garage ££££

Also could be a problem with engine wear at high mileage (although 124,000 isn't that high, if its been looked after) or breather system partially blocked causing it to get dirty more often,
See the post in the last few hours here called " Broke down on the motorway this morning!" see the last picture in the thread .. a large blue thing in the engine bay ... this is a "catch can" ... an aftermarket device that catches the vapours and oil crap before they hit the EGR, so will / may save a lot of grief .

the little blue air filter is also part of the catch can kit.

download/file.php?id=55035&mode=view

oh .. and have a look at this

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0IDR6n3pUKk

all the best.mark

Have you actually disassembled a mk7 egr ??? It's nothing like a gun and you can't actually disassemble it like you would a gun, you can only remove it and clean what you can see ffs
Garages aren't fleecing you whenever they say change..... its about guaranteeing the repair which they can't with doing a clean of the egr as cleaning might not solve the issue

Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

So there is no solution from you to the problem, I say cleaning it will lead to a better understanding of it . Yup, fleecing as I believe £100 plus an hour is way way too much, and that, at that charge its best he looks deeper into it himself and gets a better understanding of it ... which is how i would tackle it myself.

The garage cannot solve the problem .. a garage that charges ££££ cannot solve the problem .. and that's why he's here.

i'm only trying to help here as best as i can, that reason of being here is brought about by overcharging un-affordable garage charges that i experienced years ago -- so was my motivation to find out, delve into things . my analogy of the gun was to give him that motivation.

all the best.mark

[Burn2]

It's a cooled egr you could not do it by your self somewhere parked on the road under the rain :/

For now i got only two possibility.
*Go to a garage Ford check/replace the egr: but the first garage was full until 2 weeks so not possible, we will try an other
*Go back to home like that expected that nothing bad will happen for the 3000km i have to do to come back.

I could unplugg the electric part of the egr to disable it and expected that it is closed and that it will be drivable like that i don t know if it could be usefull. ( But will need to protect the electric connector not sure that's possible )


But i have open ce topic to find a solution on how this engine could kill 3 egr in 50 000/60 000km with no smoke, and with p0299 comming fast and more and more early.

[metalworker0]

i can only answer for myself now ..

that being, if it was mine , it would be taken apart to investigate what is going on .. most answers for your codes on the net all have carbon build up as the cause.

Now because the frequency of this .. there could be other outside causes for the carbon,
like said, blocked breather system.

or the whole intercooler system and boost hoses need taken off and cleaned out .. NOTE : this is a service item that needs doing regularly

You see; any oil or oil vapour that arrives at the point where the EGR directed exhaust gases mix with it equals = turns into gunge and carbon.

You looked at that video i linked to on youtube couple of posts back .... this gunge deposits itself from the EGR right up to the valves.

some cars like VW's have the gunge problem so bad, they have to have the manifold taken off at 30- 40 K miles and then be walnut blasted.

seems that does not matter how good your fuel is .. because this happens up to the combustion chamber and not in it, and the main cause of it is direct injection and EGR .

all the best.mark

[knobby1]

Simple answer is to just blank the EGR valve and get it mapped out.

Lord Knobrot

[Burn2]

Remap it to disable the egr was something i think yes.
But here in our country it's illegal and in case of accident if they found it ( and assurance here search for that ) you will be responsible for all the domage even if not related to the accident ( assurance will not cover it )
So do not want to take the risk :/
The ct every 2 year are more and more complicated and tend to test that polution is in range of what the engine should bring so there is risk there too.

All were all right for 140 000km, they should be a reason of that's not the case now.
When we will change the egr, i will see if is cloggled or not.

The point that allways make think that something goes wrong is the map_dmd and maf_dmd.
But there were no error code even with the big difference.

[Burn2]

I have taken some live value.
I think the egr is dead closed.
I see pct value trying to put 50% at the beginning of the travel when cold then it stay at 0% all the travel.
The solenoid value is switching from 0 to low value ( jumping ) so seems to be locked closed.

We have found a ford garage that will change it ( for a brand new ford oem but no other choice )and will try to see if there is firmware update in the same time.
That would have been too risky to make 3000km ilke that.
And with check engine on the power is limited...

[knobby1]

We have found a ford garage that will change it ( for a brand new ford oem but no other choice )and will try to see if there is firmware update in the same time.

There was only one software/firmware update for the Euro-4 machines, it was in 2012 and had nothing to do with the EGR valve.

Lord Knobrot

[metalworker0]

I have taken some live value.
I think the egr is dead closed.
I see pct value trying to put 50% at the beginning of the travel when cold then it stay at 0% all the travel.
The solenoid value is switching from 0 to low value ( jumping ) so seems to be locked closed.

We have found a ford garage that will change it ( for a brand new ford oem but no other choice )and will try to see if there is firmware update in the same time.
That would have been too risky to make 3000km ilke that.
And with check engine on the power is limited...

do you realise that the ford genuine EGR is something like £450

it's getting expensive .

all the best.mark