MK7 RWD knock/rattle under load

[Rattanee]

Hey folks, some of you may have seen my earlier post about my troubles with the 3.2 SAFA engine melting pistons. Well to cut a long story short, engine block was fubar, so had to find a new engine.

The only one in available viscinity was a used engine imported from the UK. I did not want to leave anything to chance, after finding 4 of my 5 injectors were out of spec, and the high pressure pump was not exactly healthy either, I ended up buying 5 new Denso injectors with a new high pressure pump. The engine was fitted by my local garage, they installed the new injectors and pump (we made sure to check timing chain condition before startup, new crankshaft seals, new gaskets all around, the only thing that was not removed was the head, as the bolts were painted by the breakers for the warranty).
Virtually everything on the used engine was in better shape than my old parts, so the only thing carrying over from the old engine was the generator and starter, plust the manifolds that were not included with the replacement engine. New clutch and flywheel fitted also.

To fit into the timeframe of the breakers' warranty, we started without turbo and most ancilalry parts still off, and it sounded good, started on first attempt. So everything was assembled completely, and all seemed fine. Engine starts easily, no rough idle or anything, but it does sound slightly different than my old engine. This one has the cyclone filter on top, whilst my old engine did not, not sure if that has anything to do with it (but I guess it shouldn't).

Anyways, there is nothing that I would say sounds bad or out of the ordinary, unless the van is under load, pulling away. At around 2-2500 RPM I get some knocking/rattle, that is louder with harder acceleration, but no warning lights of any kind, and no stuttering/roughness. (Because of this noise, I don't want to push it too hard, so I am unsure if there is any loss of power, and it's a credit to the engine compartment's soundproofing, that I only noticed it with the windows down).

What would be a surefire methodical way to find this thing?

What is problematic is, since it only appears under load, it's not exactly easy to listen to which part of the engine it's coming from.

Any ideas welcome!

[knobby1]

Hey folks, some of you may have seen my earlier post about my troubles with the 3.2 SAFA engine melting pistons. Well to cut a long story short, engine block was fubar, so had to find a new engine.

The only one in available viscinity was a used engine imported from the UK. I did not want to leave anything to chance, after finding 4 of my 5 injectors were out of spec, and the high pressure pump was not exactly healthy either, I ended up buying 5 new Denso injectors with a new high pressure pump. The engine was fitted by my local garage, they installed the new injectors and pump (we made sure to check timing chain condition before startup, new crankshaft seals, new gaskets all around, the only thing that was not removed was the head, as the bolts were painted by the breakers for the warranty).
Virtually everything on the used engine was in better shape than my old parts, so the only thing carrying over from the old engine was the generator and starter, plust the manifolds that were not included with the replacement engine. New clutch and flywheel fitted also.

To fit into the timeframe of the breakers' warranty, we started without turbo and most ancilalry parts still off, and it sounded good, started on first attempt. So everything was assembled completely, and all seemed fine. Engine starts easily, no rough idle or anything, but it does sound slightly different than my old engine. This one has the cyclone filter on top, whilst my old engine did not, not sure if that has anything to do with it (but I guess it shouldn't).

Anyways, there is nothing that I would say sounds bad or out of the ordinary, unless the van is under load, pulling away. At around 2-2500 RPM I get some knocking/rattle, that is louder with harder acceleration, but no warning lights of any kind, and no stuttering/roughness. (Because of this noise, I don't want to push it too hard, so I am unsure if there is any loss of power, and it's a credit to the engine compartment's soundproofing, that I only noticed it with the windows down).

What would be a surefire methodical way to find this thing?

What is problematic is, since it only appears under load, it's not exactly easy to listen to which part of the engine it's coming from.

Any ideas welcome!

I assume the new injectors have been "coded" into the PCM and the learns carried out "successfully" since the new injectors and pump have been fitted..??

Lord Knobrot

[Rattanee]

Hey folks, some of you may ..

I assume the new injectors have been "coded" into the PCM and the learns carried out "successfully" since the new injectors and pump have been fitted..??

Lord Knobrot

From what I was told yes, I did find the tech's note in the cab with all the injector codes written down.
I know their diag gear is not ford specific though.

You said 'learns' though, are there more then one? I was under the impression the pump needed a learn, and the injectors needed coding. Is there something else as well? (I will ask come monday which ones they did specifically)

My first thought was that maybe they input the codes in the wrong order, but I don't want to get too fixated on anything I think, as I've been wrong too many times Cylinder one should be towards the bumper, or the cab?

I might just plug in IDS tomorrow and have a looksee in the brains, I suppose it should have a timestamp or log for all things carried out, though I'm not very adept at using it, so have been avoiding trying anything other than reading error codes.

[knobby1]

Hey folks, some of you may ..

I assume the new injectors have been "coded" into the PCM and the learns carried out "successfully" since the new injectors and pump have been fitted..??

Lord Knobrot

From what I was told yes, I did find the tech's note in the cab with all the injector codes written down.
I know their diag gear is not ford specific though.

You said 'learns' though, are there more then one? I was under the impression the pump needed a learn, and the injectors needed coding. Is there something else as well? (I will ask come monday which ones they did specifically)

My first thought was that maybe they input the codes in the wrong order, but I don't want to get too fixated on anything I think, as I've been wrong too many times Cylinder one should be towards the bumper, or the cab?

I might just plug in IDS tomorrow and have a looksee in the brains, I suppose it should have a timestamp or log for all things carried out, though I'm not very adept at using it, so have been avoiding trying anything other than reading error codes.

#1 cyl is towards the front, timing chain end on a RWD. There are a few sections to the learns...PRV counter/timers reset, Injector correction factor coding into PCM, pump learn and finally injector/pilot learn. IDS should have it. We like using Forscan as it is much more user friendly.

Lord Knobrot

[Rattanee]

#1 cyl is towards the front, timing chain end on a RWD. There are a few sections to the learns...PRV counter/timers reset, Injector correction factor coding into PCM, pump learn and finally injector/pilot learn. IDS should have it. We like using Forscan as it is much more user friendly.

Lord Knobrot

Well I'm p*ssed at this point... pretty sure it's not something the garage missed, Ithink it has a bad big end bearing...
Was testing to see if I would hear the noise parked with the hood up, pumped the gas just a bit and noticed it wouldn't really rev past 3000 (it would when driven), and I'm pretty sure it spun one of the big end bearings at that point as It started ticking, and now has a constant knock even at idle. Fun part is, tickover is still completely stable and no error codes...

It's a bank holiday to boot, so will have to wait till monday to figure out what to do (and if the breakers will honor warranty, as technically we're out of time). In for a penny in for a pound I guess... worst case, get new bearing journals and use up some of the parts salvaged from the original engine.

[T350camper]

I'm pretty sure that (like most modern diesels) the engine speed will be limited when stationary in order to protect the engine. So not revving past 3000 sounds normal to me. As for the ticking sound. Is is definitely low down on the engine? A big end shell failure is normally horrific...just wondering if a tappet noise or something less terminal may be what you're hearing? Good luck.

[knobby1]

pumped the gas just a bit and noticed it wouldn't really rev past 3000 (it would when driven), and I'm pretty sure it spun one of the big end bearings at that point as It started ticking, and now has a constant knock even at idle. Fun part is, tickover is still completely stable and no error codes...

It's a bank holiday to boot, so will have to wait till monday to figure out what to do (and if the breakers will honor warranty, as technically we're out of time). In for a penny in for a pound I guess... worst case, get new bearing journals and use up some of the parts salvaged from the original engine.

The engines won't rev past 3000 as the PCM will limit it if not loaded in gear and clutch out...normal. Revving diesels unloaded is not a good idea, hence the rpm limit.

Replacing big end bearings is an engine out job, cannot be done with engine in the vehicle....if the crank is damaged, likely if bearings have failed....it becomes more of an issue.

Lord Knobrot

[Rattanee]

I'm pretty sure that (like most modern diesels) the engine speed will be limited when stationary in order to protect the engine. So not revving past 3000 sounds normal to me. As for the ticking sound. Is is definitely low down on the engine? A big end shell failure is normally horrific...just wondering if a tappet noise or something less terminal may be what you're hearing? Good luck.

Sure there's a limit on the rpm when stationary? Driving, the acceleration seemed a little sluggish around 2500-3000 RPM too, just wasn't sure if that's a sign of trouble or if I rememberd wrong (been a while since I drove it :\ ). Anyways, there was a little thunk, and then the knocking started. I read somewhere that if it's camshaft related, the ticking should be half the speed of the crank? I'm thinking of trying to count how many times it knocks in 10 sec and compare it to the idle rpm, not sure if there's any sense in doing that. It's a pretty loud sound though, loud enough I don't dare rev it above 1500 really at this point.

[Rattanee]

pumped the gas just a bit and noticed it wouldn't really rev past 3000 (it would when driven), and I'm pretty sure it spun one of the big end bearings at that point as It started ticking, and now has a constant knock even at idle. Fun part is, tickover is still completely stable and no error codes...

It's a bank holiday to boot, so will have to wait till monday to figure out what to do (and if the breakers will honor warranty, as technically we're out of time). In for a penny in for a pound I guess... worst case, get new bearing journals and use up some of the parts salvaged from the original engine.

The engines won't rev past 3000 as the PCM will limit it if not loaded in gear and clutch out...normal. Revving diesels unloaded is not a good idea, hence the rpm limit.

Replacing big end bearings is an engine out job, cannot be done with engine in the vehicle....if the crank is damaged, likely if bearings have failed....it becomes more of an issue.

Lord Knobrot

Odd, I never noticed this limit before. Crankshaft won't come out even if the transmission is dropped? Was kinda hoping it could be done from the bottom with the pan down. Not sure how it will go down, I don't have much faith in the breakers honoring the warranty at this point, but if it's an engine out, at this point I'm just going to take it to the machine shop and have them replace all wear parts inside (luckily crank and rods are good from my old engine).

[metalworker0]

Lets hear the sound .. make a youtube video

you could be on the wrong track and its top end related ... which could be a bunch of things, from failed injector seals to broken cracked cam carrier or failed rocker ... all which have been reported here as failures in these engines.

all the best.mark

[Rattanee]

Lets hear the sound .. make a youtube video

you could be on the wrong track and its top end related ... which could be a bunch of things, from failed injector seals to broken cracked cam carrier or failed rocker ... all which have been reported here as failures in these engines.

all the best.mark

Alright, I'll make a video come morning. My problem with videos generally is that a lot of sounds can sound the same through a crappy iphone camera

[knobby1]

Odd, I never noticed this limit before. Crankshaft won't come out even if the transmission is dropped? Was kinda hoping it could be done from the bottom with the pan down. Not sure how it will go down, I don't have much faith in the breakers honoring the warranty at this point, but if it's an engine out, at this point I'm just going to take it to the machine shop and have them replace all wear parts inside (luckily crank and rods are good from my old engine).

These engines have a mid sump which Ford calls a "stiffener" between the sump and block...gearbox out and timing gear/front end of engine off to get crank out....it's easier to remove the engine than faff about with all that.

https://www.catcar.info/ford/?lang=en&l ... E2OTArMTMz

Lord Knobrot

[Rattanee]

https://youtu.be/-yqIrWUs_v8

Here's a short video. It becomes louder under load.

[metalworker0]

Take the oil filler cap off, see if there is excessive chuffing coming out of it

if that is so, a video of that would confirm it's the injector seals.


all the best.mark

[Rattanee]

Take the oil filler cap off, see if there is excessive chuffing coming out of it

if that is so, a video of that would confirm it's the injector seals.+


all the best.mark

Under load it is loud enough that I'm highly doubdful of injector problems (plus all 5 injectors are brand new along with the high pressure pump), but I'll have a listen.