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my 2.2 puma operating temperature too high?

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my 2.2 puma operating temperature too high?

Postby ulik87 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:29 pm

Hi gents!
Now, brace yourself as this one might be long if I want to explain the problem in detail.
First, this is 2.2 puma in a peugeot boxer, but that should't change much. I've had the vehicle for 3 years, covered well few thousand miles in it (campervan) and there have always been two weird things.
1. sometimes in the night time I would notice momentary (fraction of a sec) headlight dim
2. sometimes when I came to a stop, I heard a radiator fan running even though I'd just stopped a regular drive, chilly weather, night time for example.
A couple of weeks ago I was going away for a weekend, night time, no traffic, 10 celsius outside. I was driving slightly more agile that usually, meaning around 60mph rather than 50 and noticed the light dimming would intensify. I also came to a junction, had my window cracked open and heard the fan running. The temperature on the dash has always shown in the middle, no overheating problems. That night I connected the dots. It was the radiator fan kicking in in random times that was causing the headlight dim effect! But there was absolutely no reason for the fan to kick in in the first place.
Luckily I had my diagnostic interface with me, so I had a plan to investigate on my way back.
The engine stone cold. I brought up the inlet manifold temperature, engine temperature and both radiator fans status. On the start the inlet temperature was showing the same as the engine (I know the fans in the puma are operated by the ECU based on the engine temperature so wanted to rule out faulty sensor).
Started the engine, off I went and observed how the temperature was raising. It was going up steadily. At some point the dash temp. gauge started going up too and when the engine temp sensor was showing around 88-90, the needle on the dash reached the middle and stayed there.
But the temperature of the engine kept going up. Depending on the speed and whether I was going uphill or not. When crusing at low speeds (urban) the temperature kept at low 90s. When going on flat at 50-60mph it would go to high 90s. When going even slightly uphill or accelerating the temperature would go up to 106-107, the fan kicked in (also showing 'active' status on the diagnostics) and it was effectively dropping the temperature I thing down to 93 when the fan would shut off. Every time there was a slight hill, the whole process would repeat. Remember it was a night time, again around 10 Celsius and driving single carriageway with no traffic.
I have to point out here, when I bought the van the cooling system ran on water.
On my return home I was debating 3 reasons.
1. thermostat
2. blocked radiator
3. water pump
What was interesting, the heating worked perfectly fine. I stopped on the way and the radiator seemed cold. Okay, I thought maybe it's the thermostat not opening, but in that case why as soon as the fan kicked in the temperature quickly dropped. If it was blocked radiator, again, how come the fan was so effective in dropping the temperature? And why was fan more effective in cooling the engine down than driving 50-60mph :shock:
Anyway, decided to start with a thermostat. Took it out, it was starting to open somewhere close to boiling point so figured it's probably getting lazy, time for a change. Bought a new one but it was opening similar, maybe slightly earlier. Decided to put the new thermostat, bur being there I though I'd take the radiator out to see how's the flow and whether I need a new one or not. There was a bit of a rusty residue inside but I flushed it out and the flow seemed pretty darn good. Fitted it back and with the new thermostat ran the engine on raised idle (it was a hot day) until the thermostat opened. The radiator got hot on its whole surface, the fan did not kick in at any point then (it was stationary). oh, I also flushed the system with a cooling system flush and then using water some two times and pured fresh cooland.
Decided to go away for another weekend and observed the temperature. In urban area it kept 89-90. AS SOON as I pushed the accelerator to get from 30mph to 50-60mph the engine temperature would go up immediately up to some 102 degrees and when I got to my speed it would go down to some 96. Every time I was slowing down before a roundabout, the temperature would go down to 91-92 and then after clearing the roundabout and getting back to speed, same thing, temperature up to 102. At any point during that trip a fan would kick in. The higher temperatures up steep hills would be 103-104.
At that moment it was obvious for me something was wrong with the water pump and that needed replacing. I was suspecting rusted away impeller. Bought a new pump and got to fitting it today. Took the old bugger out, opened it up...and it seems fine. The only suspicious thing is quite a lot of pitting/pockmarks

IMG_20210619_131032.jpg


Seems like the result of a cavitation. Don't know why would it occur? I haven't checked the expansion tank's cap but the system seems to pressurize okay, well if it wasn't there would be a lot of boiling at 107 degrees, wouldn't it? I fitted the new pump anyway but haven't got any other ideas than maybe the coolant temperature sensor is defective in a weird way that it's way to sensitive over 90 degrees and is showing too high readings, but showing correct values up to 90? But that's a very far fetched idea...
What do you guys reckon? These temperatures the engine is running in are way too high, aren't they? Not only that but also the fluctuation is very puzzling. I mean even regular acceleration from 30 to 50-60 would cause the temperature raising from 93 to 102 in a matter of however long it takes to get to that speed. That's mental.
OK, if anyone managed to get to the end, thanks and hope you can throw me some ideas, please.
Cheers,
Dan

PS. worth mentioning, I've done Alps, Pyrenees and last year Scotland and the van never showed any symptoms of serious overheating (I mean the temp gauge on dash always in the middle. the fan would kick in while climbing up the mountains but everything would act as normal). And I know the problem I'm describing has been there even since I've had the van because I've always noticed that headlight dim meaning the radiator fan was kicking in and that happens when the engine temp sensor reaches 106 degrees.
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Re: my 2.2 puma operating temperature too high?

Postby Altransit » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:01 pm

Regarding the fan cutting in and out, do you have aircon :?: :? :)
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Re: my 2.2 puma operating temperature too high?

Postby ulik87 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:10 pm

Altransit wrote:Regarding the fan cutting in and out, do you have aircon :?: :? :)


haha, I swear I was intending to add I've got no A/C but forgot.
the fan used to kick in because the ECU was seeing the engine temp going up to 106 degrees. after flush, coolant and thermostat change the fan doesn't kick in anymore because operating temperatures dropped by a few degrees but they are still around 100 degrees which is way to high IMO

cheers



OKAY, I think I'm just stupid, could anyone confirm? I didn't realize CYLINDER HEAD TEMPERATURE wasn't just a way of describing 'coolant temperature'. this is actually the cylinder head's temperature, not coolant. That possibly would explain why the temperature rises so quickly when accelerating.
Now I wonder, is there any coolant temperature sensor on this engine then? Which sensor triggers the radiator fan? If there's another temperature sensor, maybe that one is shot :?
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Re: my 2.2 puma operating temperature too high?

Postby ulik87 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 pm

Okay then. Problem solved. The reason those temperatures were so high was indeed me being ignorant enough not to notice the difference between 'engine temperature' and 'coolant temperature' :lol: so the problem was there in the first place, something kept triggering the radiator fan after all. but I think a new thermostat and radiator flush solved the issue. even though I thought it still persisted, the ENGINE TEMPERATURE which I kept monitoring dropped good few degrees and the fan stopped kicking in while driving. could have stopped there but because I'm a muppet I kept digging and the only good thing is at least I've got a new water pump :lol:

IMG_20210619_222453.jpg


and another good thing is I was literally forced to attempt and take off the front grille to get to the radiator (all the bolts were seized or half seized, two bolts holding the radiator snapped so had to drill them out). I didn't realize how amazing access to the front of the engine you get after removing the radiator, especially once all the bolts are moving freely this takes literally some 15 minutes including draining the coolant. I replaced my clutch without removing the front because I tried and felt everything would just round or snap. I also used the occasion to take apart and clean my lazy starter motor. It's back to its full life now, spins like crazy.

IMG_20210619_131135.jpg
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Re: my 2.2 puma operating temperature too high?

Postby andz327 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:15 pm

If same as transit set up the water pump is driven off the power steering pump and the spline drive can wear and pump can sort of work at lower rpm but at higher revs the it doesn't catch the drive splines and doesn't spin or only spins now and again

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Re: my 2.2 puma operating temperature too high?

Postby ulik87 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:12 am

andz327 wrote:If same as transit set up the water pump is driven off the power steering pump and the spline drive can wear and pump can sort of work at lower rpm but at higher revs the it doesn't catch the drive splines and doesn't spin or only spins now and again

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yeah, the power steering - water pump units are the same.
you mean that 3 armed, threaded bit with rubber bushings? in my case that was fine too.
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