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2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

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2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Henri2 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:17 am

Hello Transit owners!

I own a 2001 year transit with 74kw/100ps TDDI engine (ABFA code) on it. Because the ABFA engine fuel pump died, and it was cheaper for me to buy a donor van for engine swap. I bought a 2002 year transit van with 92kw/125ps TDCI (FIFA code) on it. So i began the swap. I swapped full engine loom, engine ecu, took out the FIFAs delphi ecu (behind passengers airbag, because i have LHD vans) and installed to my car, changed the key, key barrel , trasponder ring. Everything is plugged correctly, when turning the key, engine cranks, but wont start. FIFA engine came from working can. I drove it to the workshop myself, before i started the engine swap. Is there anything that I have missed? OBD diagnostic gives P007f fault code for engine and immo. Both vans have analog gauges in dash. Sorry for my typos. Greetings from Estonia!
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby wojciech » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:05 pm

This is the first time I hear that the Mk6 tdci model has analog gauges. In my opinion, the clocks should have digital displays, one multi-pin socket on the back. I can't say if a conversion is possible - tdci with analog clocks. In my opinion - it is impossible.

Error P007f is an error of the MAP sensor and its beam. The MAP sensor is powered by + 5V, I would check if there is such a voltage on the sensor plug. And I would check if the sensor itself is ok.
A failure of the MAP sensor does not prevent the engine from running. It should work.

In general, starting a tdci engine after air in the injection system is very difficult and troublesome. How does the immo control behave, is it signaling readiness to work? If Immo is ok, first check if the fuel filter is full. If not, add full fuel to the filter and install it. Then try to start the engine with a self-starter (ether spray) or with a brake cleaner. Such a start must always be done by two people, one starts with the ignition switch, the other injects spray into the intake with small but frequent doses. When the engine responds and starts running, you have to spray it around 2,000 rpm until it starts to run independently. Sometimes you need to keep the engine running with the spray for a minute or two - no rules.

It is likely that the engine will run very roughly on its own at first, making a loud knocking noise and jumping in the engine compartment. Leave it idling for twenty minutes, then go very smoothly - everything should return to normal as part of self-adaptation.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Apprentice » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:39 pm

Thanks for your reply !
I'm associated also slightly with this project and would like to mention we allready tried to start the engine with brake cleaner - no help. It works until the "brake" ends. At the same time we used outboard fuel hose with priming ball pump and the clear return hose to see fuel circulation. Also we were de-inflated the pipes from pump to injectors. So the system should be full. At least as full what it could to start with Brake cleaner. But as the return pipe was basically dry or was there really non noticeable returning flow could i imagine what there no signal for injectors.(as injectors are closed isnt there any return flow aswell ? May i be on the right way ?) The forscan shows me the desired pressure on the rail and real pressure on the rail. The real pressure is almost desired when engine rotates by starter. (i do not remember the exact units but if the desired are 32000 and we have 31000 at the starter cant it be the issue , as more as the engine came from the working car. I would more like notice with this what we have get pump pressure and also signal from the rail )
Is the forscan capable to show me somehow the injector commands ? I didnt saw this anywhere. There are only demands but those probably just written in to the program. Probably this injector signal can be measure only with oscillograph.
regarding the errors - Forscan do not gives for us any error. (ofcorse maybe the reason is i have some cheap bluetooth Elm and it might be not fully compatible but forscan recognize the system . Form the other hand the BBFLY AX cable what i have specally for forscan isnt supported by this VAN :shock: ) But we have also some china "WOW" diagnostic system and it gives mainly the errors on the 2 blocks : 1 fault is under the engine "P007F" and 1 Fault under the Immobilizer "P007F"
As you told what it could be MAP sensor but in this case it would be fault under the engine module. As we have same fault under the immo aswell might we have example no power at all on the 5V line or not on some of 5v lines ? Unfortunately we have only the Haynes paper manual and there isnt any wiring diagram about engine control. Probably the 5 volts are coming from the main ECU and we have main ECU with engine wiring from the working van would I expect to be this all in working order. But the question is would be the ECU power income thru the separate wire for 5V chain ? Seems what we miss some power or have some "fifth" component what can be block the engine start (What kind of components can be additionally stop the engine ? There is some crash sensor under the dash. This is also checked and it have contact and passes voltage thru. Might there be some else ? )
The immo itself works somehow. No any "error flashes" on the led next to the clock. Also if the immo are active than the engine not even cranks with starter. But we can crank it , it recognize the key and let us crank . So if , than it might be some "soft immo error" - like it recognize what all is ok and let's pass the data for ECU what engine could start. It opens the "data pipe" but data pipe itself is empty. No signal loop from ECU :arrow: Immo :arrow: ECU
Thanks in advance and sorry about my English :oops:
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby ned » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:57 pm

My old mk6 tdci had analogue gauges, think they changed over to digital mid 2003 or 2004 :? :wink:
5687F1CD-637D-4C1B-86DD-5CD6977C5859.jpeg

Just a thought did you also swap the injector control module from under the drivers side of the dash?
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Henri2 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:57 pm

ned wrote:My old mk6 tdci had analogue gauges, think they changed over to digital mid 2003 or 2004 :? :wink:
5687F1CD-637D-4C1B-86DD-5CD6977C5859.jpeg

Just a thought did you also swap the injector control module from under the drivers side of the dash?


Yes. I have exactly the same ( only difference is that we dont have mphs marked on speedo :) ) . As mentioned in first post, the delphi ecu is also swapped. Due the reason that in Estonia we have LHD cars, the injector control modul (delphi ecu) is located behind passengers airbag in my car :) . Plugs are connected correctly to the module and we checked that the ground is also OK for the module.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby wojciech » Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:16 am

The fuel pressure on the CR rail during the starter operation should be 350 bar with a tolerance of +/- 50 bar.
250 bar idle with the same tolerance.
Even the smallest air bubble in the CR high pressure system prevents the system from working, so it is worth trying a longer engine operation with a self-start (or break cleaner).

What ned says is that the early Mk6 models had a separate injector control module and a separate ECU. Maybe you also have two separate boxes, and you have reassembled only the ECU?
My Mk6 2.0 tdci was from June 2003 and already had both modules in one box (it also had clocks with digital display).

It would be good to check the injector control signal on the workshop oscilloscope, if it is correct and the pressure on the rail is within the tolerance - you can still check whether the injector is working on the removed but connected injector. A service technician told me in a diesel fittings workshop that Delphi injectors are extremely sensitive to contamination. So much so that when repairing injectors, Denso, Bosch and Siemens work in textile gloves, but at Delphi they have to work in latex. Because even those tiny hairs made of textile gloves were able to immobilize the Delphi injector. Note that Ford for CR systems Delphi gives more accurate and more expensive 2 micron fuel filters, for other CR systems it gives 5 micron filters.
I had a case that after transferring all the injection fittings to another engine, two Delphi injectors were not working, in the previous engine they were working properly. I took them to the Delphi workshop, only after giving them a pressure of 1,600 bar at the control stand, they started and then worked approx. But they were disassembled anyway, washed in an ultrasonic cleaner, and put back together.

So, try remove at least one injector, plug it in and see if it is spraying.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Apprentice » Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:50 am

Thanks !
Yes, we have two modules , ECU (engine control unit) and the ICM (injector control module, made by delphi ) As the harness under the bonnet is fully replaced and we do not have any open connectors there. We are quite shore what there isn't miss any sensor or component. If - than maybe some incompatibleness on the in-car harness, but according the current information there isn't any BCM (Body control module) , just "stupid" relay and fuse boxes what basically cant cause any can error. For any case we checked all colors and connectors thru the firewall and there are exactly same pins and same colors. So I do not believe what the ford would be use under the same color and same pin some different signal. (of course there is some possibility what we have just some wire broken somewhere. )
But thanks - we will try arrange the oscilloscope and find out would we get the signal to the injector. if yes - we remove the injector and make a visible spraying test of the injection. Unfortunately we should notice what we have replaced the injector washers , O-rings, upper gaskets and cleaned the injectors with brake cleaner and compressed air .So if they are so sensible might be the issue there.
Unfortunately as we do not have the wiring diagram I didn't thrust measure the voltage of the MAP sensor. There are 4 wire and we do not know between what colors we should measure the voltage. Is there any possibility what we can cause some ECU damage if we will measure the voltage under the wrong pins ? Hopefully not , but still, if I do not know between what I should got 5 V than the result do not help us much even if there is somewhere 5V . Maybe we miss the ground side of this particular 5V loop and got the ground thru other loop. But anyhow, as soon as I unplug the Map will we got 2 different Map sensor errors and it basically means what we have signal from the sensor and probably as well the voltage.
So we will go further with injector test and let you know about results :wink:
If there anyone have good ideas please do not hesitate to give us hints :)
Thanks a lot !
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby wojciech » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:56 pm

Have you replaced the injector washers - are you sure the steel ones? They cannot be copper in this motor. Contrary to appearances, it is very important, injectors with copper washers cause strange, incomprehensible problems.

The MAP sensor has four pins, marked with the letter. A is ground, the letter C is supplied with + 5V. Pin B gives the signal for the pressure transducer, pin D for the temperature transducer. In the network you will find descriptions on how to check the sensor itself. But the basic measurement is whether the voltage is + 5V on the sensor (ignition on) and whether the sensor circuits A-B and A-D are not broken. (measurement with an ohmmeter). By using a multimeter, you will not damage any circuit, even with a wrong connection.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Apprentice » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:57 pm

Wojciech , I'm really appreciate your support and thanx for the schematic !
Of course the injector washers were made from copper :twisted:
In this case we should go back to local store and put those washers over the helpful salesman "injector" 8)
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Apprentice » Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:26 pm

How much should be the voltage peak for injector? Tried to google but not any "easy way" result.
Also the 5V on MAP is tested - we have it.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby wojciech » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:15 pm

.
The CR injector control signal has a very complicated course, consisting of four phases. The highest voltage appears in the first opening phase, i.e. the so-called Booster phase, which consists in using a voltage in the range of 50 - 80 V coming from inductive overvoltages accumulated on the capacitor.

Generally speaking, the course of controlling the electromagnetic CR injector can be divided into four separate phases of operation
1 - Booster phase (voltage boost)
2 - Pull phase
3 - Maintenance phase
4 - Switch-off phase.
A schematic, simplified drawing shows this.
The second figure shows the actual signal waveform, the picture shows a screenshot of the oscilloscope from testing a Delphi injector. This is what all four phases of the signal look like - the measurement of the value is possible only on the scale of the oscilloscope screen.

It is better not to go too deep into these issues because this is a dissertation topic.
:lol:
The signal on the oscilloscope is to be correct - and that's it.
-----------------------

MAP sensor is not expensive - instead of fighting it, it is better to try to replace it with a new one. If that doesn't work, I would suspect the wiring harness to the ECU.
Are both sensor circuits OK? (ohmmeter)

---------
How long did you run engine using the break fluid sprayr? As I wrote before - sometimes you need to support the engine for up to two minutes to start working independently. The fuel filter must be full before such a start.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Apprentice » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:27 pm

Thanks again !
We bought some computer oscilloscope and tried to measure something with this. As we use ossiloscope at first time in a life was it took some time to understand at all something. Unfortunately Finally we got hurry with other things and just measured one injector. we got some results like this - when i put the ignition on than will be there impulse like ~60 volts . When i start to crank got to pulses almost in a row within a second and than like 1,5 -2 second nothing and than again two pulses in a row. The voltage was like around -2v to +60v. In every pulse were like small impulse under the line and high impulse upwards. Hz value were like 0,54 hz. But as we started to use this device can i tell was that total average or frequency between the fastest pulses . I think it was average. Try to look from closer the peaks tomorrow. Maybe we can see some flashings on top of the peak when i use the microsecond scale. As we didnt learn how to put it in to the record mode yet , was almost impossible to see something if it was in a millisec mode.
So seems like we have at least some signal there aswell. So tomorrow will take one injector away an lets see. Will it spray as well as should be.
Regarding of the starting with the brake cleaner - maybe we did slightly less than 2 minutes, but there wasn’t at this time any symptoms what it try’s to start to work even from one cylinder.
We will try to fight further tomorrow :)
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby wojciech » Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:39 am

When a non-professional deals with an injection system with an engine start problem (I am also :lol: ), the procedure should be as follows:
1. Verifying that the CR rail is at the correct pressure with the starter running
2. If the pressure is correct, we check if there is a correct control signal on the injectors (oscilloscope),
3. If the signal is correct, there are no errors in the ECU memory and start is impossible - I take out the injectors and take them to a professional Delphi workshop to be checked at a test stand.

---------------------------------
Are you sure there are no other errors. Especially the camshaft sensor error - in tdci this error is not stored in the ECU memory! It is only shown in real time when the sensor is actually not working. And this is a Hall sensor, it behaves very unsteadily during a failure - it works once, sometimes not. It is powered by + 5V.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby Apprentice » Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:28 am

So , finally the engine works as have to be 8) No any issues with injection and electricity.
We must confess what about we have made itself for us disservice. Before the lifting the TDCI under the bonnet we were checked the condition of the clutch and dual mass flywheel and as the TDDI's flywheel were in much better condition were we replaced this as well. Unfortunately we didn't count the teeth's on the flywheel - they fit to each other perfectly except the teeth count :twisted:
So as soon as we put the right flywheel inside started the engine at almost half of turn.
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Re: 2.0 TDDI to 2.0 TDCI swap problem

Postby wojciech » Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:42 pm

Damn it! ... It's good that you remembered to replace the flywheel. I wouldn't have thought of this ...


If I can advise you now: do an injector overflow test, what fuel return values ​​each injector has. This is an easy, quick and cheap test that tells a lot about the quality of the injectors. In the case of tdci, you have to watch the injectors very much, it has a huge impact on the failure rate of the engine.
At the British Transit Forum, I did not hear any information on how to regenerate Delphi CR injectors yourself, but in Poland it is a common practice, I have often done it myself. Basic condition - replacement only with original Delphi parts, valves and nozzles. And technical sense and cleanliness.
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