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ASM HPU Motor

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ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:09 pm

Hi guys,

My van's ASM HPU pump recently decided to let me down on the school run. We got back to the van and the pump simply wouldn't do anything no matter how many times I opened / closed the door, turned the key etc. It had to be picked up by the recovery company. The next day, it sprung back to life. It's not the first time i've had problems with the motor refusing to turn but it's the first time it's been so bad that i had to be recovered. This meant it was finally my time to have the motor out - although it does still work, it's become unreliable. I had a bit of a fight with it, the wire goes between the HPU and a bracket. It was a right old pig of a job, eventually i just cut the plug off the wire and yanked it out rather than trying to pry the bracket away from the HPU. In the process however a pipe came away from the gearbox somehow.. i had a big spill of red fluid so i've now got another issue to deal with..

With the motor out, i borrowed my partners car and went to the nearest electric motor repair / rewind place i could find. They prized it apart and said they could sort it for £180-£200. He asked what my budget was... I said not as much as that! He showed me the inside of the motor and said at the very least it'll need blowing out with an airline. Sure enough, inside the motor casing, was a whole load of black soot. The coils were also quite well covered with it and you can visibly see it in the internal bearing. Additionally the outside of the coils are also caked up with it. Some of the black soot had large lumps in it too - so if those got between the coils and magnet, it would certainly explain the motor jamming up.

Here are some photos:

Plenty of loose soot in here..

Image Image

Coils and coil outer sides covered and the bearing with dirt in it

Image Image

Quite a lot of muck around the armature & bushes area too and more muck on the outside of the coils

Image Image

When i emptied the case onto a sheet of A4 paper, around a tablespoon of soot came out

Image

Even after emptying that lot out, there was still this lot left inside the case

Image


The guy at the motor repair company sold me 2 replacement bearings - £12 inc vat for the pair plus he threw in a used one that's still good just in case. I've yet to fit them but i'll update this thread when I can regarding them.

I took the motor to a local tyre place today and got them to blow the motor out with their airline. They didn't want any money for it which was nice and the motor now looks a lot cleaner for it

Image Image

Image Image

I've not tested the motor yet nor reinstalled it but i will update this thread with my progress.

WBB
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby ossie cossie » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:30 pm

Following this thread with great interest, i have an ASM transit with motor issues, its nice to see someone actually stripping the motor down, i bought a spare motor the other day not identical but it may work it was mentioned on a thread on here, its a VW ABS pump motor but it will need modification to fit.
the plug is different and the shaft is slightly offset and needs modification.
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby ossie cossie » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:33 pm

like this
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:54 pm

Progress update..

Took the opened motor to another motor specialist today to ask about the carbon brushes as it looked like they were at the end of their spring travel.

He removed the bearings and we were able to remove the round plastic with the carbon bearings and copper braid connected to them.

Image

Surprisingly the carbon brushes still had a lot more travel on them so they're not the problem. The real problem with these motors is the commutator - the bit that spins around inside the brushes attached to the motor shaft. It's worn right down by around 1-1.5mm. So much so there's barely any copper left under the grey mess.

Image Image

The guy i spoke with said the brushes can be replaced for approximately £10 per piece but as there was still some travel left in them he didn't think it worth worrying about.

Image

Inner side of the two bearings

Image

These next couple of pics taken in the car while waiting to pic my son up... As you can see there is a copper rim left on 3 of the commutator contacts

Image

When we removed the bearing and got to the commutator, the 4th copper rim was loose - flapping about. I suspect it is these that break off as the commutator wears down and they they jam between the commutator and the carbon brushes. This might explain why when left for a few hours (the motor can relax) the bit of metal can then move slightly and then the motor can spin up the next time.

To show you just how much the commutator has worn down, here's a side picture of the remaining 3 bits of copper

Image Image

The only way to try and prize a little more life out of it was to clean up the commutator - remove those 3 left over ridges and take a small amount off the remains of the commutator on a lathe. I found someone to do that, he only took off a small amount however you can see the shiny new copper (though it's now worn down so much that each copper piece is now two pieces - where there is some sort of locking thing in the middle of what was the old commutator contacts)

Image

I have new bearings, the guy at the motor repair place said to stick them in an oven for 15 mins at 150C and then they just slide onto the shaft. Interesting point to note is that rewind prices are quite high because they have to wind the copper coils by hand - there's 12 in these motors.

Incidentally the commutator is knackered however the motor man did say that there is a company in London - Robson & Francis - who not only rewind and repair motors but will also make and supply parts for them - including commutators. Their website is very specific that they will make parts in order for you to perform your own repairs. I've not managed to speak with them yet as their voicemail says the office is closed until the 10th but i will be making contact.

I'm hoping to get the motor back into the HPU in the next few days and will update this thread.
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby ossie cossie » Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:23 am

awesome info thanks a lot. send me a personal message and i have a present for you re the ASM box its 4mb in size i could email it as well

Tony.
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:52 pm

ossie cossie wrote:Following this thread with great interest, i have an ASM transit with motor issues, its nice to see someone actually stripping the motor down, i bought a spare motor the other day not identical but it may work it was mentioned on a thread on here, its a VW ABS pump motor but it will need modification to fit.
the plug is different and the shaft is slightly offset and needs modification.


Do you know what model it came from? I went to my local breakers yard yesterday and couldn't find this motor In any vw abs pumps! Seen a few on eBay that look similar but would be handy to know I'm ordering the right one..
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:12 am

Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby ossie cossie » Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:15 pm

i didnt see the car but i think it looks like this one i got pics from the net

https://www.parts4europeancars.com.au/v ... 907-379-p/
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:06 pm

Well I have today done a temporary test of my motor. I partially fitted a bearing on the inner end of the shaft (literally applying it with hand pressure) and slotted it into the main case with the front plate fitted on. Applied 12V...

It works - and sounds quite healthy.

But it won't for long - the copper on the commutator is knackered so I'm still sending it off for repair to have a new comm fitted.
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:48 pm

The inside of the motor came back today from Robson & Francis of london..

Image

Nice new commutator fitted! Not tested yet or reinstalled but i'll update this thread accordingly.
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:16 pm

So it turns out that this is not my original armature... it's been swapped out with a pre-repaired unit and has different coils and is also a bit worn on the slotted end. I'm not going to risk this, it's visibly older and also has mild corrosion on it. My unit had no corrosion and i don't want to risk this deteriortaing and causing more damage.

Shall keep you updated..
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:12 am

Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:39 pm

Well after some confusion between us, Robson and Francis got my original motor armature sorted! It arrived back and I set to work reinstalling it.

First thing I will say is that when you reinstall the bearing on the inside part of the armature, you want to put it in the oven at 150C - 20 mins but DO NOT USE THE FAN. Just normal traditional oven mode (fan mode just seemed to fail) and the bearing needs to be on the top shelf. Once hot, it literally slips onto the main shaft and will cool down quickly so ensure you get it in exactly the right place - quick. I had originally around 1/2mm sticking out of the bearing so i aimed for this when reinstalling it.

Next i placed it into the case - now, if it doesn't spin freely, you need to push it in deeper. Once the bearing is properly seated into the round hole, the armature will spin freely.

Now the tricky bit... getting the 4 spring loaded brushes onto that nice new commutator. I made a long paper cone and slipped it onto the commutator. I then slipped the plastic over / brushes over that and eased it down into place. Point to note is that i kinda made a mess of this doing it several times as the silicone seal was a pain. Eventually i removed the outer ring of the two seals and gave up on it. Slipped the plastic bit with the brushes back on and then the final bearing - again heated to 150C and slipped on. Again the bearing was not even with the slotted part on the outside so i tried to preserve this.

Now the motor was back together. Tested, it was spinning the opposite way that i had marked on the case before sending the armature away. I wasn't sure if i'd cocked up or they had when rebuilding it. Either way nobody here could advice on the direction of it spinning so i had a difficult decision to make...

When refitting the motor to the HPU (which is bloody tight) I found i had to loosen the HPU. The bracket it's attached to has several bolts low down on the bracket. Ignore them. Just undo the two at the top instead and the HPU is loose. Then you can route the wire through the side a lot easier.

There is an intermediate piece between the motor and pump. It only fits in ONE WAY. It will fit the motor either way around but only one slot will fit into the pump - so TAKE YOUR TIME TO GET IT RIGHT.

Once you've got it fitted into the pump, use a screw driver and turn the slot so that it is in the vertical position like the letter I. Don't try to do it horizontally like a minus symbol - as the round piece will just fall out of the pump. At the worst i suppose you could use a tiny blob of glue or blue-tak to hold it in place but it's not ideal.

Turn the shaft on the motor to roughly the same position - it's a little tricky as the mounting holes are not conveniently placed but you'll be able to approximate it. Push the motor into place gently. As you do so, twist it gently from side to side. Eventually you'll feel it against the round piece fitted into the pump and you'll feel the motor shaft slot into it (you need to be good at feeling small differences and be gentle - it's easy to miss). Once it's slotted in, you're good to tighten up the motor and secure it in place.

IF you've not lost any fluid (I disturbed the pipe plugged into a non obtainable rubber seal on the side of teh gearbox) then you should be good to go.

I wasn't totally sure that mine would spin right though so i broke one of the wires and connected each end to a long length of mains wire. At the other end of it i loosely tied both of the wires together so that when i opened the drivers door, if it sounded wrong i could pull them apart and break the power to the pump.

I opened the door.... and heard NOTHING! Then i put my hear down under the van and sure enough, i could hear the pump whizzing away but it didn't sound like it was doing anything - i was pretty glum... until i heard "Click". That's the hydraullic accumulator now full and cutting the power supply to the pump!!! Key in the ignition and the van started up.

I removed my safety wire setup and fixed the break in the pump wire. It's been running well since. I do still get the odd hesitation at times but nothing like before. The pump motor now is much quieter and higher pitched. When opening the drivers door first thing in the morning (with the accumulator fully discharged) it's a maximum of 12 seconds from the pump starting to the accumulator clicking it off. Previously it was a low pitched slow sounding pump that could take in excess of 30-40 seconds to fill the accumulator.

So yes, if you have a loud growly HPU pump that takes around 30 seconds to stop when opening the door, you need to start planning for a motor rebuild.

Point to note, my local rewinders quoted around £4-500 for a rewind only. Robson and Francis did it for £95 (plus VAT and postage) and this included a new commutator. £95!!! They also sent me a used but pre-repaired one to start with - so they literally keep the motor armatures in stock ready to send out at short notice (it had a new commutator but no rewind). If you're not phased about having your original back, that may be the best option for you if you're in a hurry - send yours in and just swap it out for another they've already got. They've done a great job and got me back on the road!

I will try to post photos at some point but i must confess i didn't take many of it being reassembled so hopefully my description here in this reply will help. Maybe if i get chance i'll take it out again and take more pics or do a video... who knows, i don't get much time these days.
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby Terrygordon » Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:04 am

Another thing to be a where off with the ASM system which took me hours of searching to find is the relay which turns it on and off this is a 60 amp relay so takes lots of power and does burn out . I fitted a new pump and nothing finally found the relay which was badly burnt filed the terminals and off we go .
Relay on my RHD VH 2001 was on the passenger side under the windscreen whasher bottle so standing at the front of the car on the right
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby ossie cossie » Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:31 pm

awesome info, and thanks for the write up.
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Re: ASM HPU Motor

Postby WheelyBigBox » Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:36 pm

Terrygordon wrote:Another thing to be a where off with the ASM system which took me hours of searching to find is the relay which turns it on and off this is a 60 amp relay so takes lots of power and does burn out . I fitted a new pump and nothing finally found the relay which was badly burnt filed the terminals and off we go .
Relay on my RHD VH 2001 was on the passenger side under the windscreen whasher bottle so standing at the front of the car on the right


Good info - thanks
2002 Mk6 2.4L T330 (Turbo) 90HP with Auto gearbox / clutch / shifter.

Also has a built in brown trouser momenter due to the novel rear suspension and a "this'll cost a lot to fix" thought generator :!:
WheelyBigBox
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Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:12 am


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